Sonny Liston V

[ThatOne]

George Foreman

Larry Holmes

Lennox Lewis

Evander Holyfield

Riddick Bowe

Mike Tyson

Ken Norton

Joe Frazier

[Goodnight, Irene]

George Foreman

Larry Holmes

Lennox Lewis

Evander Holyfield

Riddick Bowe

Mike Tyson

Ken Norton

Joe Frazier

In absolute terms, I make him a starting favourite in all of these fights, but the bouts with Foreman, Holmes & Lewis (& possibly Holyfield, too) would be touch-&-go.

[The Great John L]

George Foreman gets out boxed for a few rounds before he starts to reach Sonny and hurt him in the middle rounds. George by TKO soemtime between 7 and 10.

Larry Holmes gets dropped and has to hang on a few times, but still manages to take a close dec.

Lennox Lewis gets dropped and stopped between rnds 5 and 7 of a competitive fight.

Evander Holyfield has trouble with the Liston jab (who wouldn't) and loses a UD.

Riddick Bowe starts quick and builds an early lead before getting walked down and taken apart. Liston, KO8

Mike Tyson stuns Liston in the opening round, but Sonny takes charge in the 3rd hammers Tyson until the ref stops it in the 10th.

Ken Norton never gets started and is counted out in the 3rd.

Joe Frazier has some shaky moments in the first few rounds, but his constant pressure takes its toll on Sonny, who gets saved by the ref in 12th.

[Ezzard]

I like Holyfield

Liston – Holmes is 50-50
Liston-Foreman is 60-40 to Liston.

Sonny wins the other fights.

[dempseyfire]

Honestly I'd favor Liston in all of these fights. Surprised that some are picking EVander, style-wise Holyfield is made to order for Liston. Bowe would also get his ass kicked Golota style vs Sonny.

The most even matchups are Holmes and Foreman. Frazier would be a war and that fight would truly test the oft-repeated claim that Liston 'lacked heart'.

[yancey]

George Foreman gets out boxed for a few rounds before he starts to reach Sonny and hurt him in the middle rounds. George by TKO soemtime between 7 and 10.

Larry Holmes gets dropped and has to hang on a few times, but still manages to take a close dec.

Lennox Lewis gets dropped and stopped between rnds 5 and 7 of a competitive fight.

Evander Holyfield has trouble with the Liston jab (who wouldn't) and loses a UD.

Riddick Bowe starts quick and builds an early lead before getting walked down and taken apart. Liston, KO8

Mike Tyson stuns Liston in the opening round, but Sonny takes charge in the 3rd hammers Tyson until the ref stops it in the 10th.

Ken Norton never gets started and is counted out in the 3rd.

Joe Frazier has some shaky moments in the first few rounds, but his constant pressure takes its toll on Sonny, who gets saved by the ref in 12th.

Agree with all these picks save the Foreman one. I think Sonny gets him.

[gambler49]

George Foreman WINS KO9

Larry Holmes WINS MD

Lennox Lewis LOSSES BY TKO 10

Evander Holyfield LOSSES BY TKO 10

Riddick Bowe LOSSES BY KO 8

Mike Tyson WINS SD (WATTA FKN DREAM FIGHT)

Ken Norton LOSSES KO 6

Joe Frazier WINS SD (WATTA FKN DREAM FIGHT)

[Goodnight, Irene]

George Foreman WINS KO9

Larry Holmes WINS MD

Lennox Lewis LOSSES BY TKO 10

Evander Holyfield LOSSES BY TKO 10

Riddick Bowe LOSSES BY KO 8

Mike Tyson WINS SD (WATTA FKN DREAM FIGHT)

Ken Norton LOSSES KO 6

Joe Frazier WINS SD (WATTA FKN DREAM FIGHT)

Brave man, picking Liston-Tyson to go the distance. Gambling man, you are indeed

At any rate, I think you meant, 'Loses,' not, "Losses."

[The Great John L]

Agree with all these picks save the Foreman one. I think Sonny gets him.

This is one of those where I rate Liston higher all time, but head to head I'm not quite sure.

When I first typed it up I had Sonny winning also, basically because Sonny's technique was a notch above Georges'. However, the more I thought about it, I just think the difference would have been Georges' single greatest asset; his seemingly unlimited will to win. George never gave up. I keep reading all these excuses for George that he somehow lost his edge after Zaire. But if anything that loss made him angrier and made him work harder. If he had somehow lost something, then he would have never been able to survive the beating he took from Lyle. Very few HWs in history could have kept climbing off the canvas, seemingly beaten, and then somehow dig deep enough to stop Lyle. He may have been the only one in history who could have pulled that off.

Of course, as I noted, I had Sonny winning also until I was ready to hit the submit button. But I just can't ignore that intangible that George has.

[Grimm]

I like Holyfield

Liston – Holmes is 50-50
Liston-Foreman is 60-40 to Liston.

Sonny wins the other fights.

I agree with you almost wholeheartedly except I have it

Liston – Holmes is 70-30 Holmes

I have him winning the rest.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Agree with all these picks save the Foreman one. I think Sonny gets him.

This is one of those where I rate Liston higher all time, but head to head I'm not quite sure.

When I first typed it up I had Sonny winning also, basically because Sonny's technique was a notch above Georges'. However, the more I thought about it, I just think the difference would have been Georges' single greatest asset; his seemingly unlimited will to win. George never gave up. I keep reading all these excuses for George that he somehow lost his edge after Zaire. But if anything that loss made him angrier and made him work harder. If he had somehow lost something, then he would have never been able to survive the beating he took from Lyle. Very few HWs in history could have kept climbing off the canvas, seemingly beaten, and then somehow dig deep enough to stop Lyle. He may have been the only one in history who could have pulled that off.

Of course, as I noted, I had Sonny winning also until I was ready to hit the submit button. But I just can't ignore that intangible that George has.

You rank Liston higher all-time? Surely you don't rate his achievements above Foreman's, though? & if you have Foreman knocking him out, welll...?

[dempseyfire]

John L and I agree on most everything here, but he seems to really think Foreman was over-rated, which I disagree with. He says the young Foreman never beat a slick boxer, but he came much closer to knocking out Young than Ali, Norton, or Lyle, and I'm still waiting to hear of all the slick boxers Holmes beat (since in an earlier debate he said Holmes could fight all styles and George couldn't)

[The Great John L]

You rank Liston higher all-time? Surely you don't rate his achievements above Foreman's, though? & if you have Foreman knocking him out, welll...?

Sonny was a better technician than George, and fairs better in some of the H2H matchups than George.

Close matches often times boil down to styles, which most here seem not to recognize. While I rate Liston higher, and feel he does better in H2H matchups against a wider variety of fighters than Foreman, that doesn't mean he couldn't lose to someone I might rank lower than him. I think George beats Sonny becuase despite an edge in discipline and technique, George had a far greater will to win.

Irene, if you are confused by the concept that a fighter can beat someone ranked higher than themselves, then I'm quite disappointed, because most of your posts are pretty logical. Vernon Forrest beat Mosely twice, but few would rank him higher. It's a simple matter of styles.

As I've said many times, George was a an ATG, but he did poorly when confronted with guys that were hard to hit.

[The Great John L]

John L and I agree on most everything here, but he seems to really think Foreman was over-rated, which I disagree with. He says the young Foreman never beat a slick boxer, but he came much closer to knocking out Young than Ali, Norton, or Lyle, and I'm still waiting to hear of all the slick boxers Holmes beat (since in an earlier debate he said Holmes could fight all styles and George couldn't)

He lost the Young fight, and it wasn't as close as the cards. You just conformed what I said, George never beat a slick boxer. Shavers had better luck against Young, and most here seem to feel he's almost inept. The difference is that Shavers fought Holmes twice.

Holmes fighting slick boxers is irrelelvant to the discussion of Foreman fighting Holmes, which I think is what you are referring to. Unless, of course, you think George was a slick boxer, which I don't think is the case.

Do you really think Georges slow footed, telegraphed punching style style was better suited to beating a greater variety of fighters than Holmes quicker and more fluid style?

[dempseyfire]

But Foreman wasn't a slow plodder . . .that's one thing that differentiates him from your Tuas,Shavers and Ruddocks. The guy was an incredible physical specimen, maybe the strongest HW of all time, a quick athlete (much faster than given credit for), a great chin, and as you said an incredible will to win. This makes him incredibly dangerous vs any style. Holmes on the other hand was a slicker and more technical fighter but he lacked the punching power to discourage the likes of Snipes, Shavers and Berbick to keep coming forward aggresively into the late rounds. You couldn't go straight at Foreman, and using movement and angles vs a guy that strong and athletic is MUCH more difficult to do in reality than on paper.

Shavers got a gift vs Young in their rematch and KO'd a VERY green Young their first fight.

As stated, I think Young-Foreman was very close.

[The Great John L]

But Foreman wasn't a slow plodder . . .that's one thing that differentiates him from your Tuas,Shavers and Ruddocks. The guy was an incredible physical specimen, maybe the strongest HW of all time, a quick athlete (much faster than given credit for), a great chin, and as you said an incredible will to win. This makes him incredibly dangerous vs any style. Holmes on the other hand was a slicker and more technical fighter but he lacked the punching power to discourage the likes of Snipes, Shavers and Berbick to keep coming forward aggresively into the late rounds. You couldn't go straight at Foreman, and using movement and angles vs a guy that strong and athletic is MUCH more difficult to do in reality than on paper.

Shavers got a gift vs Young in their rematch and KO'd a VERY green Young their first fight.

As stated, I think Young-Foreman was very close.

Foreman was never quick, had ordinary footwork and decent skills. Sorry, but if he's this quick, skilled, unstoppable destructive force, then why did he fail in the very few instances where he was put in the ring with guys who could actually avoid punches?

His very soft build up to the title fight was no coincidence. The Foreman team understood his short comings, and by the time George decided to come back he did as well, so he deftly avoided anybody who could move at all, except when he was given title shots. And the big money title shots were why he was fighting.

Of course the draw in the second Young fight was questionable, but Shavers dropped Young again in that fight and came close to stopping him. You're the one that made such a big deal out of George staggering Young in their fight. George couldn't hit him solid enough to drop him and that was only real moment in a fight that Young controlled. If George did so well, then why wasn't he able to drop Young, or even hurt him beyond the one time? Isn't he at the top of most ATG HW puncher lists? Shavers hit Young and Young went down. Several times.

I'm not saying that George wasn't great, just that he was flawed. Part of that was probably due to his limited pro buildup, and then his quick rise to prominence after the Frazier fight. I don't think he was ever really developed properly and never really learned what to do when someone was hard to hit. His career record supports my opinion perfectly, it's just everyone is foggy eyed over his complete destruction of two great fighters. Yes, they were great, but they were also perfect for him. Shavers handled Norton even easier than Foreman did, but no one wants to mention that.

Oh yes, don't bother saying that Norton was way past it when Shavers stopped him. Yes he had probably declined, but do you really think it would have mattered? Norton was never noted as a gifted defensive fighter.

In retrospect, I'm actually more impressed with George's performance against Lyle. Yes, he was soemtimes wild and amatuerish, but that's because he ran into someone who was nearly identical to himself and he found himself getting beaten up. And as Irene noted, he was probably a tad rusty. However, his true greatness showed when he kept getting up and somehow managed to stop Lyle after he was taken to the brink of defeat and was totally exhausted. Very impressive, yes. So were the Frazier and Norton fights. But none of these fights show any capabilities for beating a guy who is good at avoiding his punches. And the few guys he fought like that beat him.

The only debate I'm getting is conjecture, not supported by what actually happened in the ring. It's great to be able to think that someone would have been able to do something, but if you want to truly analyze these hypotheticals then you need to be able to look for similar style matchups during the respective fighters careers. And George comes up as doing poorly with decent defensive fighters.

Of course, not that many HWs, including many of the ATGs were truly good defensive fighters.

Yes, George is an ATG. But he's probably one of the more vulnerable of the ATG HWs.

[dempseyfire]

Young gave every fighter he placed problems at his peak, you are making like Foreman having problems landing flush on Young is some huge negative.

Foreman faced the top 'defensive' HWs of the 70s in Young and Ali (and Ali didn't do a great job of avoiding Foreman's body shots, he simply had one of the greatest abilities to absorb punishment and come back of any fighter ever) . . were are these "guys who could avoid punches" he avoided? Please don't say the early 70s version of Jimmy Ellis, who would've been destroyed by big George. Nor Quarry, who defensively was never great.

Yes Shavers dropped Young but for most of the fight he was soundly outboxed, their rematch was not nearly as close as the Foreman fight.

Watch the ending hook-uppercut combination he takes out Norton with . . if that isn't 'quick' I'm not sure what is.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You rank Liston higher all-time? Surely you don't rate his achievements above Foreman's, though? & if you have Foreman knocking him out, welll...?

Sonny was a better technician than George, and fairs better in some of the H2H matchups than George.

Close matches often times boil down to styles, which most here seem not to recognize. While I rate Liston higher, and feel he does better in H2H matchups against a wider variety of fighters than Foreman, that doesn't mean he couldn't lose to someone I might rank lower than him. I think George beats Sonny becuase despite an edge in discipline and technique, George had a far greater will to win.

Irene, if you are confused by the concept that a fighter can beat someone ranked higher than themselves, then I'm quite disappointed, because most of your posts are pretty logical. Vernon Forrest beat Mosely twice, but few would rank him higher. It's a simple matter of styles.

As I've said many times, George was a an ATG, but he did poorly when confronted with guys that were hard to hit.

Not at all --- in point of fact, Foreman rates higher on my all-time scale than Liston, even though I give a slight edge to Liston head-to-head. It's only slight, but Foreman's far better achievements (IMO) more than tip the ranking scale in his favour.

I do think, however, you both over-estimate Foreman's courage, & under-estimate Liston's.

[Goodnight, Irene]

But Foreman wasn't a slow plodder . . .that's one thing that differentiates him from your Tuas,Shavers and Ruddocks. The guy was an incredible physical specimen, maybe the strongest HW of all time, a quick athlete (much faster than given credit for), a great chin, and as you said an incredible will to win. This makes him incredibly dangerous vs any style. Holmes on the other hand was a slicker and more technical fighter but he lacked the punching power to discourage the likes of Snipes, Shavers and Berbick to keep coming forward aggresively into the late rounds. You couldn't go straight at Foreman, and using movement and angles vs a guy that strong and athletic is MUCH more difficult to do in reality than on paper.

Shavers got a gift vs Young in their rematch and KO'd a VERY green Young their first fight.

As stated, I think Young-Foreman was very close.

Amen. Foreman had obvious weaknesses, & people will forever look at them & say, "Well, that would be relatively easy to exploit." Thing is, his win record is so enormous for a damn good reason. Once he got on top of you, your night was over. & he was quicker & more dominant in jumping on a man than you can imagine.

Shavers never got close to being as competitive with Young as Foreman was, btw. That fight result was a farce, & the Young Shavers KO'ed in their previous fight...useless baromater.

[Goodnight, Irene]

But Foreman wasn't a slow plodder . . .that's one thing that differentiates him from your Tuas,Shavers and Ruddocks. The guy was an incredible physical specimen, maybe the strongest HW of all time, a quick athlete (much faster than given credit for), a great chin, and as you said an incredible will to win. This makes him incredibly dangerous vs any style. Holmes on the other hand was a slicker and more technical fighter but he lacked the punching power to discourage the likes of Snipes, Shavers and Berbick to keep coming forward aggresively into the late rounds. You couldn't go straight at Foreman, and using movement and angles vs a guy that strong and athletic is MUCH more difficult to do in reality than on paper.

Shavers got a gift vs Young in their rematch and KO'd a VERY green Young their first fight.

As stated, I think Young-Foreman was very close.

Foreman was never quick, had ordinary footwork and decent skills. Sorry, but if he's this quick, skilled, unstoppable destructive force, then why did he fail in the very few instances where he was put in the ring with guys who could actually avoid punches?

His very soft build up to the title fight was no coincidence. The Foreman team understood his short comings, and by the time George decided to come back he did as well, so he deftly avoided anybody who could move at all, except when he was given title shots. And the big money title shots were why he was fighting.

Of course the draw in the second Young fight was questionable, but Shavers dropped Young again in that fight and came close to stopping him. You're the one that made such a big deal out of George staggering Young in their fight. George couldn't hit him solid enough to drop him and that was only real moment in a fight that Young controlled. If George did so well, then why wasn't he able to drop Young, or even hurt him beyond the one time? Isn't he at the top of most ATG HW puncher lists? Shavers hit Young and Young went down. Several times.

I'm not saying that George wasn't great, just that he was flawed. Part of that was probably due to his limited pro buildup, and then his quick rise to prominence after the Frazier fight. I don't think he was ever really developed properly and never really learned what to do when someone was hard to hit. His career record supports my opinion perfectly, it's just everyone is foggy eyed over his complete destruction of two great fighters. Yes, they were great, but they were also perfect for him. Shavers handled Norton even easier than Foreman did, but no one wants to mention that.

Oh yes, don't bother saying that Norton was way past it when Shavers stopped him. Yes he had probably declined, but do you really think it would have mattered? Norton was never noted as a gifted defensive fighter.

In retrospect, I'm actually more impressed with George's performance against Lyle. Yes, he was soemtimes wild and amatuerish, but that's because he ran into someone who was nearly identical to himself and he found himself getting beaten up. And as Irene noted, he was probably a tad rusty. However, his true greatness showed when he kept getting up and somehow managed to stop Lyle after he was taken to the brink of defeat and was totally exhausted. Very impressive, yes. So were the Frazier and Norton fights. But none of these fights show any capabilities for beating a guy who is good at avoiding his punches. And the few guys he fought like that beat him.

The only debate I'm getting is conjecture, not supported by what actually happened in the ring. It's great to be able to think that someone would have been able to do something, but if you want to truly analyze these hypotheticals then you need to be able to look for similar style matchups during the respective fighters careers. And George comes up as doing poorly with decent defensive fighters.

Of course, not that many HWs, including many of the ATGs were truly good defensive fighters.

Yes, George is an ATG. But he's probably one of the more vulnerable of the ATG HWs.

Foreman's run-in to Frazier was not, "very soft," or anything of the sort

[Robinson]

Liston vs

George Foreman
I see George winning with his power and his years
of under studying Liston has helped him negate the
strengths of the peak Liston.

Foreman UD


Larry Holmes
Holmes is able to stay a step ahead of Liston, and while
he has toruble early with the jab...like he did against the
Truth. I see him able to up the pace and land the more
telling blows.

Holmes UD

Lennox Lewis
Lewis is able to land some hard shots on Liston after some
rounds. He finds a home for his own jab and the right hand.
Able to knock Liston down, he is unable to do much else.
Close at times, but it is more Lewis.

Lewis UD

Evander Holyfield
Holy tangles with Liston often at close range and both men
exchange nicely in some fun to watch brawls. But over the
course of the fight Holy stays the more active and beats
Liston to the punch.

Holyfield UD

Riddick Bowe
Peak Bowe is able to beat on Liston. Who does cause Riddick
troubles. Bowe almost stops Liston. But the big Bear sees the
fight to the end and wins some good wins when Bowe spends
the time reacting instead of leading.

Bowe UD


Mike Tyson
I see Tyson ending Liston's night. I see him getting on the inside
going low and banging some hard shots that will put Liston away.

Tyson TKO3

Ken Norton
Liston is able to trouble Norton with his power and hard blows, though
Norton counters nicely. It is a fight where Norton counters Liston's
jab with his own or a left hook. A close and engaging fight.

Liston SD

Joe Frazier
This would be a fun one to watch. Liston has it early, but after some
time Frazier is able to get to that body and really bang away at Sonny.
The later rounds go to Frazier who is able to stop Liston/

Frazier TKO 9.

[Robinson]

I get to go against the grain again :)

[Ezzard]

But Foreman wasn't a slow plodder . . .that's one thing that differentiates him from your Tuas,Shavers and Ruddocks. The guy was an incredible physical specimen, maybe the strongest HW of all time, a quick athlete (much faster than given credit for), a great chin, and as you said an incredible will to win. This makes him incredibly dangerous vs any style. Holmes on the other hand was a slicker and more technical fighter but he lacked the punching power to discourage the likes of Snipes, Shavers and Berbick to keep coming forward aggresively into the late rounds. You couldn't go straight at Foreman, and using movement and angles vs a guy that strong and athletic is MUCH more difficult to do in reality than on paper.

Shavers got a gift vs Young in their rematch and KO'd a VERY green Young their first fight.

As stated, I think Young-Foreman was very close.

Foreman was never quick, had ordinary footwork and decent skills. Sorry, but if he's this quick, skilled, unstoppable destructive force, then why did he fail in the very few instances where he was put in the ring with guys who could actually avoid punches?

His very soft build up to the title fight was no coincidence. The Foreman team understood his short comings, and by the time George decided to come back he did as well, so he deftly avoided anybody who could move at all, except when he was given title shots. And the big money title shots were why he was fighting.

Of course the draw in the second Young fight was questionable, but Shavers dropped Young again in that fight and came close to stopping him. You're the one that made such a big deal out of George staggering Young in their fight. George couldn't hit him solid enough to drop him and that was only real moment in a fight that Young controlled. If George did so well, then why wasn't he able to drop Young, or even hurt him beyond the one time? Isn't he at the top of most ATG HW puncher lists? Shavers hit Young and Young went down. Several times.

I'm not saying that George wasn't great, just that he was flawed. Part of that was probably due to his limited pro buildup, and then his quick rise to prominence after the Frazier fight. I don't think he was ever really developed properly and never really learned what to do when someone was hard to hit. His career record supports my opinion perfectly, it's just everyone is foggy eyed over his complete destruction of two great fighters. Yes, they were great, but they were also perfect for him. Shavers handled Norton even easier than Foreman did, but no one wants to mention that.

Oh yes, don't bother saying that Norton was way past it when Shavers stopped him. Yes he had probably declined, but do you really think it would have mattered? Norton was never noted as a gifted defensive fighter.

In retrospect, I'm actually more impressed with George's performance against Lyle. Yes, he was soemtimes wild and amatuerish, but that's because he ran into someone who was nearly identical to himself and he found himself getting beaten up. And as Irene noted, he was probably a tad rusty. However, his true greatness showed when he kept getting up and somehow managed to stop Lyle after he was taken to the brink of defeat and was totally exhausted. Very impressive, yes. So were the Frazier and Norton fights. But none of these fights show any capabilities for beating a guy who is good at avoiding his punches. And the few guys he fought like that beat him.

The only debate I'm getting is conjecture, not supported by what actually happened in the ring. It's great to be able to think that someone would have been able to do something, but if you want to truly analyze these hypotheticals then you need to be able to look for similar style matchups during the respective fighters careers. And George comes up as doing poorly with decent defensive fighters.

Of course, not that many HWs, including many of the ATGs were truly good defensive fighters.

Yes, George is an ATG. But he's probably one of the more vulnerable of the ATG HWs.

I agree with John L.

In the years before the comeback Foreman was not rated as a top 10 HW. He was seen as the hardest punching but least adaptable of the top HW champs. He was vulnerable.

On the comeback he was carefully matched (thank goodness too as nobody wanted to see him beaten up). He worked his way up to a shot and did well enough against Holyfield. Proved he had a top chin, better ring smarts and had learned to pace himself better. There was no shame for the old man in that defeat. When he got his 2nd crack and won it then that was amazing, one of my best moments in sport.

That deservedly pushed him up into most people’s top ten. But he was still a vulnerable fighter.

[jezzamundo]

George Foreman TKO6 Sonny Liston - Result could easily be reversed, good matchup.

Sonny Liston SD15 Larry Holmes - Holmes wins rematch by SD, I see this as a very close matchup

Sonny Liston KO2 Lennox Lewis - Lewis wins by TKO9 in rematch

Sonny Liston TKO8 Evander Holyfield

Sonny Liston TKO7 Riddick Bowe

Sonny Liston KO10 Mike Tyson

Sonny Liston TKO6 Ken Norton

Sonny Liston TKO5 Joe Frazier - I think if Frazier makes it past round 8 he takes it by late stoppage, but Liston takes it 2 times out of 3.