MARCIANO V ALI

walford · Post by **walford** » 13 Mar 2005, 08:23

Just interested to see what others think about this matchup.

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 13 Mar 2005, 14:31

Everybody knows that the "Real Rock" would humble the loud mouthed Clay,with bombs,and defeat him on a K.O.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 13 Mar 2005, 15:27

Ali wins by points or cuts stoppage, in my opinion.

walford · Post by **walford** » 13 Mar 2005, 22:31

zuru wrote:Everybody knows that the "Real Rock" would humble the loud mouthed Clay,with bombs,and defeat him on a K.O.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously not everyone knows this. I tend to agree. I think The rock would have given Ali as much trouble as Frazier did, the difference being that 'The Rock' had awsome power in both hands and I don't think he would have allowed Ali to avoid him all night.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 14 Mar 2005, 10:08

With all due respect I have watched a lot of both Marciano and Frazier and Frazier was light years away from Marciano.... Rocky was a good brawler, with a good punch... Frazier was a hurricaine by comparison, a human wrecking machine! he had more speed, power, strength and overall boxing skills than Marciano by far. A pre exile Ali would have outboxed and stopped Marciano in about 10 rounds... he would cut Rocky to peices. The 1970s Ali would get hit more but the man who stood up to the punches of Frazier, Liston, fOREMAN, ShAVERS, and Lyle among others would not be koed by Rocky and would Ko Rocky himself.
I think Rocky was overrated as a puncher... he was more of a wear you down type of fighter than a one punch ko artist like Foreman, Liston, Shavers...etc... to say Rocky could have koed even an older Ali is fanciful imo.

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 14 Mar 2005, 12:32

silkov wrote:With all due respect I have watched a lot of both Marciano and Frazier and Frazier was light years away from Marciano.... Rocky was a good brawler, with a good punch... Frazier was a hurricaine by comparison, a human wrecking machine! he had more speed, power, strength and overall boxing skills than Marciano by far. A pre exile Ali would have outboxed and stopped Marciano in about 10 rounds... he would cut Rocky to peices. The 1970s Ali would get hit more but the man who stood up to the punches of Frazier, Liston, fOREMAN, ShAVERS, and Lyle among others would not be koed by Rocky and would Ko Rocky himself.
I think Rocky was overrated as a puncher... he was more of a wear you down type of fighter than a one punch ko artist like Foreman, Liston, Shavers...etc... to say Rocky could have koed even an older Ali is fanciful imo.

SILKOV,
With respect back,i personally think(keywords I personally think)that Frazier was no where near the durability,strength,or power of Rocky.The only edge that I would give to Frazier over Rocky,was cut resistance.Clay would have had a chance by cutting Rocky,& using his speed,reach to stay away,and wait for a stoppage.IF he did not cut the Rock,he would get abused.Ali,who fought more stationary,& with more bravado than his younger self (Clay),would be beaten,violently,and STOPPED!!Frazier,also would have been K.O.ed!!,the machismo that worked against lesser fighters,& lack of mobility,would have brought him to an early defeat.As I said,this is just speculation on my part,and i'm sure plenty will disagree,but that's alright.This board is here for opinions and friendly debate between fellows as ourselves who apparently suffer from the same "boxing addicition"

take care,
zuru

revporl · Post by **revporl** » 14 Mar 2005, 13:33

I think Ali would have handled Marciano quite easily, far greater reach and speed than Rocky and a better chin than anyone who Rocky actually fought. Ali on points or cuts stoppage I reckon.

JC · Post by JC » 14 Mar 2005, 14:31

I would have to agree with the consensus opinion so far a points victory for Ali or possibly stoppage on cuts depending on which era's rule they were fighting under. One of the problems with comparing heavyweights from different eras is the difference in size, in their respective primes Ali would have out weighed Marciano by at least 15lbs. According to boxrec the only three men which Marciano faced who were over 15st (210lbs) were Johnny Shkor, Big Bill Wilson (who both appear to have been journey men) and the over the hill Joe Louis. Ali would have offered Marciano a challenge like nothing he faced.

A can't agree with the argument that Marciano would have bombed him out, if he survived the onslaughts of Foreman, Frazer and all the others already mentioned I think it's naive to assume it would be all about Marciano landing big shots.

While Marciano always had a punchers chance and throughout his career always seemed to dig deep and deliver when it counted Ali would be a step too far in my opinion. I think Marciano’s tendency to lose the early rounds and Ali's skills combined with his weight and reach advantages would have ended with a unanimous points win for Ali.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 14 Mar 2005, 17:41

zuru wrote:
silkov wrote:With all due respect I have watched a lot of both Marciano and Frazier and Frazier was light years away from Marciano.... Rocky was a good brawler, with a good punch... Frazier was a hurricaine by comparison, a human wrecking machine! he had more speed, power, strength and overall boxing skills than Marciano by far. A pre exile Ali would have outboxed and stopped Marciano in about 10 rounds... he would cut Rocky to peices. The 1970s Ali would get hit more but the man who stood up to the punches of Frazier, Liston, fOREMAN, ShAVERS, and Lyle among others would not be koed by Rocky and would Ko Rocky himself.
I think Rocky was overrated as a puncher... he was more of a wear you down type of fighter than a one punch ko artist like Foreman, Liston, Shavers...etc... to say Rocky could have koed even an older Ali is fanciful imo.
SILKOV,
With respect back,i personally think(keywords I personally think)that Frazier was no where near the durability,strength,or power of Rocky.The only edge that I would give to Frazier over Rocky,was cut resistance.Clay would have had a chance by cutting Rocky,& using his speed,reach to stay away,and wait for a stoppage.IF he did not cut the Rock,he would get abused.Ali,who fought more stationary,& with more bravado than his younger self (Clay),would be beaten,violently,and STOPPED!!Frazier,also would have been K.O.ed!!,the machismo that worked against lesser fighters,& lack of mobility,would have brought him to an early defeat.As I said,this is just speculation on my part,and i'm sure plenty will disagree,but that's alright.This board is here for opinions and friendly debate between fellows as ourselves who apparently suffer from the same "boxing addicition" take care,
zuru

Frazier fought far better opposition than Rocky... Foreman would have koed Rocky much as he did Frazier. Watching the both of them (Rocky and Frazier) Frazier was much faster and his punches more deadly I think.
Also do you really think Marciano was a bigger puncher than Shavers, Liston, Frazier and Foreman?.... all of whom did not come close to stopping or even flooring Ali who had probably the best chin of all the champs!?.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 14 Mar 2005, 18:07

If a near shot Ali could take Earnie Shavers punches, a peak Ali could take Marcianos I would think.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 15 Mar 2005, 07:05

KOJOE90 wrote:If a near shot Ali could take Earnie Shavers punches, a peak Ali could take Marcianos I would think.

My opinion as well... Ali was floored late by Frazier in their epic first bout and still recovered... he fought Norton another heavy puncher for about 10 rounds with a broken jaw and was not stopped and yes when he was really shot he beat Shavers and took some of Shavers best shots... the same Shavers who would later almost ko Holmes.... the shot Ali took from Shavers in the 2nd of their fight is very comparible to the one which floored Holmes in the 7th of his title fight with Shavers..... Ali had the best chin I think of all the Heavyweight champs... also great recupertive powers and heart obviously. Rocky was a wear them donw type puncher rather than a one punch ko artist... his ko of Walcott cam after 12 draining rounds.... Walcott himself was probably a harder one punch hitter than Rocky amply illustrated by his one punch ko of Ezzard Charles, something Rocky couldn't do in two fights with Ezzard.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 15 Mar 2005, 13:11

silkov wrote: Walcott himself was probably a harder one punch hitter than Rocky amply illustrated by his one punch ko of Ezzard Charles, something Rocky couldn't do in two fights with Ezzard.

That is one of my favourite KO's. People talk about Robinsons KO of Fulmer being the 'perfect punch', but to me Walcotts KO of Charles was every bit as good.

The timing, fluid movement, accuracy and power was a joy to behold.

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 15 Mar 2005, 14:17

silkov wrote:
zuru wrote:
silkov wrote:With all due respect I have watched a lot of both Marciano and Frazier and Frazier was light years away from Marciano.... Rocky was a good brawler, with a good punch... Frazier was a hurricaine by comparison, a human wrecking machine! he had more speed, power, strength and overall boxing skills than Marciano by far. A pre exile Ali would have outboxed and stopped Marciano in about 10 rounds... he would cut Rocky to peices. The 1970s Ali would get hit more but the man who stood up to the punches of Frazier, Liston, fOREMAN, ShAVERS, and Lyle among others would not be koed by Rocky and would Ko Rocky himself.
I think Rocky was overrated as a puncher... he was more of a wear you down type of fighter than a one punch ko artist like Foreman, Liston, Shavers...etc... to say Rocky could have koed even an older Ali is fanciful imo.
SILKOV,
With respect back,i personally think(keywords I personally think)that Frazier was no where near the durability,strength,or power of Rocky.The only edge that I would give to Frazier over Rocky,was cut resistance.Clay would have had a chance by cutting Rocky,& using his speed,reach to stay away,and wait for a stoppage.IF he did not cut the Rock,he would get abused.Ali,who fought more stationary,& with more bravado than his younger self (Clay),would be beaten,violently,and STOPPED!!Frazier,also would have been K.O.ed!!,the machismo that worked against lesser fighters,& lack of mobility,would have brought him to an early defeat.As I said,this is just speculation on my part,and i'm sure plenty will disagree,but that's alright.This board is here for opinions and friendly debate between fellows as ourselves who apparently suffer from the same "boxing addicition" take care,
zuru
Frazier fought far better opposition than Rocky... Foreman would have koed Rocky much as he did Frazier. Watching the both of them (Rocky and Frazier) Frazier was much faster and his punches more deadly I think.
Also do you really think Marciano was a bigger puncher than Shavers, Liston, Frazier and Foreman?.... all of whom did not come close to stopping or even flooring Ali who had probably the best chin of all the champs!?.

Sllkov,
I have to admit,concerning The Rock,'I am biased,& my heart always interferes in my assessment,so much of my opinion is maybe "out there" a bit.As far as other fighters,I can give my fair,(what I think fairly accurate) thoughts.I see some really well thought out responses to a lot of posts on this board,which is a real delight,with only occasional heckling(as I am doing somewhat on this particular post)to get folks dander aroused.you folks take care,
zuru

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 15 Mar 2005, 21:56

revporl wrote:I think Ali would have handled Marciano quite easily, far greater reach and speed than Rocky and a better chin than anyone who Rocky actually fought. Ali on points or cuts stoppage I reckon.

Almost everyone Marciano faced had far greater reach and Ali did not have the greatest chin he just usually avoided getting hit.

BozSkaggs · Post by **BozSkaggs** » 16 Mar 2005, 01:11

Look, I love Marciano, but I think Ali would have won convincingly. He was just tat good.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 16 Mar 2005, 07:35

Grimm wrote:
revporl wrote:I think Ali would have handled Marciano quite easily, far greater reach and speed than Rocky and a better chin than anyone who Rocky actually fought. Ali on points or cuts stoppage I reckon.
Almost everyone Marciano faced had far greater reach and Ali did not have the greatest chin he just usually avoided getting hit.

With respect you are wrong, later in his career Ali almost took pride in his ability to take a punch... and he did imo have the best chin of any heavyweight champ when you look at the quality and punch power of his opposition.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 16 Mar 2005, 13:42

silkov wrote:
Grimm wrote:
revporl wrote:I think Ali would have handled Marciano quite easily, far greater reach and speed than Rocky and a better chin than anyone who Rocky actually fought. Ali on points or cuts stoppage I reckon.
Almost everyone Marciano faced had far greater reach and Ali did not have the greatest chin he just usually avoided getting hit.
With respect you are wrong, later in his career Ali almost took pride in his ability to take a punch... and he did imo have the best chin of any heavyweight champ when you look at the quality and punch power of his opposition.

I have to echo Silkovs comments here. The 1960's version of Ali did indeed have the sort of movement and reflexes that meant he almost never took a full blooded punch. There was of course the odd exception such as against Cooper and Banks.

But the post exile Ali in the 1970's was a slightly different fighter, the enforced layoff took away his ability to dance for 15 rounds and his reflexes had dulled, although he was still very fast.

During the second phase of his glorious career Ali took some huge shots from Joe Frazier, the 15th round knockdown that Ali suffered may well have finished any other Heavyweight in history (Holmes may have survived that on though), but Ali got up at about the count of 3 and fought back.

Ali also took a huge punch early on in the first fight against Kenny Norton that broke his jaw, but Ali didn't even go down.

Once again Ali took some monsterous, vicious blows in the third brutal fight agains Frazier in Manilla and never hit the canvas.

He took some huge shot from arguable the biggest hitting Heavyweight Champion ever George Foreman and never went down.

He took big shots in two further fights against Kenny Norton and went in with big punching Ron Lyle and never went down.

Then when he was an old and shot fighter he withstood the killer blows of the ultimate Heavyweight KO artist Earnie Shavers and again never went to the canvas.

Ali had the greatest chin of any Heavyweight Champion in my opinion.

Neri · Post by **Neri** » 16 Mar 2005, 18:21

I think Ali would have boxed Marciano's head off. Ali wouldnt stop him but win on points. Marciano would be too small and be troubled by Ali's speed

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 17 Mar 2005, 08:51

Which Ali are we talkin' about here? Young fast one or the older more likely to take a punch fighter.

Sugar Dus Leonard · Post by **Sugar Dus Leonard** » 17 Mar 2005, 09:03

Marciano was in tough fights with the older versions of Walcott and Charles, yet both gave Marciano ALOT of trouble. Walcott was on his way to a points victory through 13 rounds of dominating Marciano, and Charles just about took Marcianos nose off with a cut that was so deep.

Ali was lightyears beyond Walcott or Charles, especially the older faded verions that Rocky defeated. If a little known college boy could take Marciano the distance and have many believe that he had won ''Roland Lastarza'' then I just have to go with Ali by knockout late in the fight after badly outclassing Rocky the way Lastarza did in spots.

Dus.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 17 Mar 2005, 16:12

Grimm wrote:Which Ali are we talkin' about here? Young fast one or the older more likely to take a punch fighter.

I belive either Ali would have beaten Marciano... even the 'shot' Ali who beat Shavers would have had the guile and heart to beat Marciano.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 20 Mar 2005, 02:18

silkov wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:If a near shot Ali could take Earnie Shavers punches, a peak Ali could take Marcianos I would think.
My opinion as well... Ali was floored late by Frazier in their epic first bout and still recovered... he fought Norton another heavy puncher for about 10 rounds with a broken jaw and was not stopped and yes when he was really shot he beat Shavers and took some of Shavers best shots... the same Shavers who would later almost ko Holmes.... the shot Ali took from Shavers in the 2nd of their fight is very comparible to the one which floored Holmes in the 7th of his title fight with Shavers..... Ali had the best chin I think of all the Heavyweight champs... also great recupertive powers and heart obviously. Rocky was a wear them donw type puncher rather than a one punch ko artist... his ko of Walcott cam after 12 draining rounds.... Walcott himself was probably a harder one punch hitter than Rocky amply illustrated by his one punch ko of Ezzard Charles, something Rocky couldn't do in two fights with Ezzard.

"Rocky was a wear them donw type puncher rather than a one punch ko artist... his ko of Walcott cam after 12 draining rounds.... Walcott himself was probably a harder one punch hitter than Rocky amply illustrated by his one punch ko of Ezzard Charles, something Rocky couldn't do in two fights with Ezzard"
The Marciano-Walcott I knockout was ABSOLUTELY a real one-punch knockout. They had fought for 12 rounds, but Marciano had been on the losing end up to that point and Walcott was viewed as the fresher of the two going into the 13th. Furthermore, he absolutely knocked Walcott's lights out so the guy flopped limply to the floor and didn't move for the next 45 seconds.
Marciano had one-punch knockout power if anyone did. Have you ever seen Marciano's fights with Rex Layne and Harry "Kid" Matthews? He's devastating.
Marciano's 2-round knockout of Matthews was the only time Matthews was ever knocked out in over 100 fights(Matthews was stopped twice otherwise, but one was on a back injury and one was on his feet when he was just taking a beating). Marciano flattened him with a couple left hooks in the 2nd round after feinting a right.

Marciano smashed out Rex Layne's teeth with one shot, broke bone in LaStarza's arms, knocked Walcott out like a light, nearly killed Carmine Vingo, etc. Marciano was one of the hardest hitters of all time. Period.

Anyway, I think Ali probably stops Rocky on cuts late after a war. Ali's immense durability would separate him from other foes.

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 21 Mar 2005, 10:02

walford wrote:
zuru wrote:Everybody knows that the "Real Rock" would humble the loud mouthed Clay,with bombs,and defeat him on a K.O.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Obviously not everyone knows this. I tend to agree. I think The rock would have given Ali as much trouble as Frazier did, the difference being that 'The Rock' had awsome power in both hands and I don't think he would have allowed Ali to avoid him all night.

Marciano by decision.

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 21 Mar 2005, 11:28

silkov wrote:
Grimm wrote:Which Ali are we talkin' about here? Young fast one or the older more likely to take a punch fighter.
I belive either Ali would have beaten Marciano... even the 'shot' Ali who beat Shavers would have had the guile and heart to beat Marciano.

i agree and it would not have taken to long

Alex · Post by **Alex** » 21 Mar 2005, 18:07

I think Ali would have used his much longer reach to good effect and spent the 15 rounds back peddling to take a wide points decision. If he stood and traded with Marciano i'd say Rocky may have stopped him.

MARCIANO V ALI

MARCIANO V ALI

rocky vs cassius

Re: rocky vs cassius

Ali by decision or late stoppage.

Re: rocky vs cassius