Prime Lennox Lewis V

[Goodnight, Irene]

You don't see a different fighter in the first and second Rahman matches? Cus I do. Rahman was a HUGE underdog and Lennox is pretty widely acknowledged in boxing circles as not being the most consistently disciplined trainer shall we say. No way he was getting hit with that bomb a second time.

Yeah, I do see it. I see it in that fight, & the fight with Klitschko. Maybe the first with McCall, too. That's perhaps three times in all his career.

It's a bullsh!t criticism.

[Bricks]

Would a Vaughn Bean (as tough as he was) have really gone the distance with a prime Holyfield?

Holyfield was no KO expert at Heavyweight though, would you evern expert a prime Holyfield to brutally knock Bean out?

Yes I probably would. Holyfield was one of the only men to floor Bowe legally and Mercer when he was under the age of 40. He knocked out Douglas, Rodrigues and threw Moorer around like a rag doll in their rematch. He also floored Tyson. Thats good enough for me.

Some of the smaller heavyweights from the golden age.... such as Dempsey.
Now if you put a 195lb Dempsey in with a 245lb Lewis.... i dont think there is the weight or power there to KO Lewis.
Sure Dempsey is way ahead of McCall or a Rahman.... but theres going to be a differnence in power between a 240lb super heavyweight and a 195lb Cruiserweight (by todays standards).

How about Jones vs Ruiz? Sure Jones outclassed Ruiz but he was nowhere near knocking him out

I dont buy any of these sub-200lb guys actually knocking Lewis out.

I dont think you ever saw Jack Dempsey fight. If you did you wouldnt be comparing a RJJ at HW with Dempsey. Dempsey was a wrecking ball in his prime. Tough and with extraordinary power, will, and ferocity. The only HW i have seen compare to this was Tyson during 1985-1989. Like Foreman mk 1 and Tyson, Dempsey carried incredible power for his weight.Dempsey would have kayoed Lewis , broke his jaw, broke his ribs, picked him up and sent him home in a ambulance.


To the other guy Perhaps you ought to rewatch Ruddocks fights on youtube before he fought Tyson and after before you dismiss it as "nonsense" that he was shot. even in the Page and Jackson fights he looked shot On paper it seemed to everyone Ruddock was still the same, just as I thought ODLH would be the same versus pacman. Once these guys stepped in it was apparent they were shot.

[ think Ruddock was favored by most pundits. I know he was by me
/quote]

Exactly thats my point. Based on what they had seen prior in ruddocks career no one predicted a 2 round destruction. The reason it happened was Ruddock was shot but none of us knew it until we saw him against Lewis and subsequently in his career. SIMPLES

dempsey fan, how about an excuse for Big George's annihilation of Joe Frazier?

Digressing, yes, Ruddock was the favourite with many bookies for his fight with Lewis. And yes, he did fight a very strangely subdued fight. Is it a coincidence that this often happened to fighters getting in the ring with Lewis? David Tua looked a shell of himself against Lewis. Akinwande strangely bear hugged him the whole fight and basically tried to get himself DQed after Lewis came out very quick and aggressive...and Oliver McCall just stood there and cried his eyes out.

You can call it a conspiracy, or just acknowledge that facing Lewis was a very intimidating prospect.

No one REALLY thought Rahman or McCall were gonna win their rematches. Is it not widely accepted that a focused, aggressive Lewis is a nightmare for anyone.

His only ever real weakness was complacency. The only person that could really beat Lewis was Lewis.

Finally a solid and worthy argument. I agree with you Tua looked subdued but he was intimidated by Lewis, and so were Golota, and Akinwande. Mccall was out of his mind on drugs and on the verge of a nervous breakdown when he got in, and Ruddock was shot!

[Bricks]

quote="Ezzard"]

I don't think you can say Ruddock or Holyfield were 'shot' when Lewis fought them, although EVander was not anywhere near his prime and well past his best (Evander's prime ended after the Bowe rematch IMO, and you could even argue after the first Bowe fight).

Ruddock definetly was. Although we had no way of knowing until he went into the fight and his legs were all over the place and he didnt throw even one smash! His confidence was dead.
He was never again even half the man he had been with Tyson and before.

I concur with taking evander as "well past his best" than shot overall. Although I still think the Holy who fought Lewis was so far removed in terms of workrate,stamina,speed from the 87-92 version that I would very well say he was shot. Would a Vaughn Bean (as tough as he was) have really gone the distance with a prime Holyfield?

Nonsense, Ruddock was the same fighter. Lewis was just more destructive than Tyson against that type of opponent. After Lennox thrashed him he was done. Not before.
I agree. Lewis-Ruddock was a live fight going in. And how can you tell someone is 'shot' after a 2 minute blow out?

[/quote]





It wasnt a two minute blow out it was a two round blowout and you can tell plenty from ruddocks demenour the guy who stepped in the ring that night had problems standing up. go and watch Norris-Mugabi or Mclellan-Mugabi or bumphus-honeyghan and those fights will tell u plenty about how u can tell "someone is shot after a 2 minute blow out".

[Shazam!]

Ruddock definitely didn't look like himself in those two rounds but I've heard too many haters try to discredit victories or in the worst case, entire careers....

Some guys start slow in fights. I dont know why Ruddock was subdued but it sure as hell was a big fight and I'm sure as hell that Ruddock prepared well for it. He certainly looked to be in decent shape.

It takes a lot of balls to get in the ring with Lewis. A lot of people like to claim that he was soft and that he got intimidated. This is not true. Lewis actually got in there with, intimidated and beat up a lot of big punching heavyweights.

Tua, Briggs, Morrison, Ruddock, Akinwande, Tyson, Mercer, Klitschko, McCall, Rahman, Grant, Bruno.

You'll be hard pressed to find too many HW's outside of Muhammad Ali who actually took on and beat up as many big punchers as that. He didn't have an ATG chin. But he had a very good one. Just watch him stand and take the big punching Briggs's best shots, smile and smash him back in what was a great fight. Or the flush shots he stood up to against Klitschko, Bruno, Mercer etc.

[Bricks]

Ruddock definitely didn't look like himself in those two rounds but I've heard too many haters try to discredit victories or in the worst case, entire careers....

Some guys start slow in fights. I dont know why Ruddock was subdued but it sure as hell was a big fight and I'm sure as hell that Ruddock prepared well for it. He certainly looked to be in decent shape.

It takes a lot of balls to get in the ring with Lewis. A lot of people like to claim that he was soft and that he got intimidated. This is not true. Lewis actually got in there with, intimidated and beat up a lot of big punching heavyweights.

Tua, Briggs, Morrison, Ruddock, Akinwande, Tyson, Mercer, Klitschko, McCall, Rahman, Grant, Bruno.

You'll be hard pressed to find too many HW's outside of Muhammad Ali who actually took on and beat up as many big punchers as that. He didn't have an ATG chin. But he had a very good one. Just watch him stand and take the big punching Briggs's best shots, smile and smash him back in what was a great fight. Or the flush shots he stood up to against Klitschko, Bruno, Mercer etc.

I can't disagree with what you say. Ruddock was shot. He was subdued. But lewis simply didnt give him a chance and lewis intimidated him cos Razor knew Lewis and he knew Lewis was fast improving.

People came to respect Lewis around about the time 2000 closed and he had beaten Tua and Grant. Those were impressive wins added to the Holyfield fights.

Lewis may not have been the most talkative and somewhat shy, he may have done nothing to promote the sport worldwide, but he had charisma when he decided to show it as in during the trash talking with Rahman.

Lewis was at his best when he took a risk like fighting Vitali at short notice and deciding to take out ruddock and golota early.

The same way some of us including me disparage him for fighting a shot Holy or Tyson you have to give him some credit for taking on golota, tua and Grant at their peak. Those were at least in alphabet terms no 1 contenders.

[Shazam!]

Well, that's what I could never get my head around. How can people disparrage someone for fighting a 'shot' fighter when a) Holyfield was undisputed world HW champion, ranked #3 P4P in the world by ring magazine and given a good chance of winning the fight by many pundits? and b) Lewis had been trying to get fights with the Bowes, Holyfields and Tysons of the world for, literally, years?

Early victories against the likes of Ruddock, Tucker etc were credible. It's not his fault Bowe threw his title in the bin rather than fight him.

Lewis was just a very laid back, down to earth guy...which helped him a lot in his career. He was at the top of the sport for 12 years, went in there with all the big punchers of his time and came out of it number 1 and with his physical and mental health in tact.

I don't see how he's anything else other than a credit to the sport and really don't understand the hate directed toward him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I certainly don't hate him, but if you're searching for reasons as to why some might, he was arrogant & he was rather dull to watch, for the most part.

Like I said, Lewis is a long way off my, "Hate List" of fighters, but those qualities in particular rubbed people wrong. Some Americans just plain old begrudged him for being a dominant foreigner too, if you ask me.

[Shazam!]

Oh man you gotta be arrogant if you're a heavyweight! His one punch power was up there with the best of all time and many of his KO's (eg Hasim Rahman, Shannon Briggs, Frans Botha, Razor Ruddock, Michael Grant and Andrew Golota) were truly spectacular. I found him really exciting to watch because of his combination of ring craft and his big right hand. That same right hand may well have KO'd Bowe back in 88 if he hadn't been wearing headgear...and 15 years later it tore Vitali's face in half.

Also from reading posts it seems a lot of people are less familiar with his earlier fights (1990-1998) than with his later ones, when he was older and slower.

[Shazam!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWPF8Kvd ... re=related He was just a killer finisher. You can't watch this video and deny that. His resume boasts one of the widest array of big punchers in HW history he and KO'd nearly all of em. Who didn't love watching those huge right hands

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Oh man you gotta be arrogant if you're a heavyweight..." - Shazam!

[Bricks]

I certainly don't hate him, but if you're searching for reasons as to why some might, he was arrogant & he was rather dull to watch, for the most part.

Like I said, Lewis is a long way off my, "Hate List" of fighters, but those qualities in particular rubbed people wrong. Some Americans just plain old begrudged him for being a dominant foreigner too, if you ask me.

I agree he was dull to watch and for large periods of his early to mid career considered safety first and risk averse. Of course this frustration was compounded cos every now and than he would do something like destroy razor ruddock and get peoples expectations up that he could be something special which of course he did eventually end up being.But back than 1989-early 1997ish even in the mccall rematch he was tentative about taking out a dead man walking. he exploded some incredible bombs on mccall and mccall took them.

Just after he won the WBC title in 1997 I was in London on Oxford Street and remmebered i had read a small ad in the evening standard that lewis would be there signing books. I went in and there were like 10-15 people maximum in the waterstones branch. Lewis sat there impassively not saying a word or smiling. A very low key booksigning for a low key guy.Of course maloney tried to play the bigshot refusing pictures.

If Frank Bruno had been in there the same day or chris eubank there would have been a police cordon.

Of course the Golota fight where he did a demolition job on the divisions perceived new dangerman was awesome and of course we than had the holy fights and the break out year of 2000 and 2001 when lewis destroyed Botha in a London homecoming and 2002 when he cemented it by beating Tyson.

As a side note as far as the question of nationhood went this was another reason Lewis wasnt accepted. in the uk he was perceived as a yankee or canadian as he sounded american not british. He also had a jamaican twinge to his accent at times. the crazy thing is when he spoke in the USA after fights he sounded british in comparison! Also he made an enemy of the beloved Frank Bruno by trash talking Frank calling him a uncle tom. lewis was never really respected in the UK until the Holyfield fights

[Shazam!]

Yeah, that seems a pretty fair account. Good points about the accent thing and also the Bruno comparisons. But I personally liked the way he boxed. He had a certain poise and grace, whereas Bruno was more stiff and robot-like.