Hollyfield v Ali

[Tantum]

Riddick Bowe's speech was slurred bad years before he fought Golota.... Do not compare a prime fighter with a shot fighter.

he beat holyfield, gonzales and hide in the 12 months before he fought golota. shot? erm okay

Holyfield had Hepatitis, And it was a back and forth fight Bowe nearly lost.

Hide is a joke. He was down for 14 seconds when he got hit by Bowe's bicep. (ruled a slip)

The same Gonzalez that got his shit kicked by half a dozen shot or over rated fighters?

[dempseyfire]

You lost out when you ddy the water's and clear things up a bit --The Holyfield (34 yrs old) that fought Tyson is better than the Ali (34 yrs old) that fought Young IMO.

Ali was 22 years old when he beat Sonny Liston for the HW championship. What was Holyfield doing at 22?? Making his pro cruiserweight debut vs Lionel Byram. Holyfield at 34-a professional of 35 fights, with 16 of those fights as a heavyweight over 8 years.
Ali when he fought Jimmy Young?? A profesional of 52 fights, over 15 world championship fights, and had fought against the best of a the heavyweight division for 13 years.
Those are two different 34 years old.

[Sweet Scientist]

There's no shame at all in Holyfield losing his first fight at the age of 29--especially after moving up in weight-- to a young, motivated, slim 235 lbs, Futch trained Bowe (Ali lost his first fight at the age of 29 to a Futch trained Frazier...do you not see the similarities?)

"see the similarities?"

Do you want a one word or two word answer...no...or fornicate, no!...

Joe Frazier belongs in the top 10 or 15 heavyweights of all time...

Riddick Bowe was an underacheiver, a fat guy who wasn't fond of training...Had Bowe reached his full potential, he would have beaten Holyfield all 3 times instead of just 2 out of 3...and then he wouldn't have done much more...he was afraid to fight Lewis (and no one can argue that point), and when he fought Golota, someone who was big and could hit, he had no answer for that...

During the championship reigns of Ali-Frazier-Foreman-Holmes (in your dreaded '70's)...those guys would have salivated at the chance to fight a Riddick Bowe...his size and record would be good for the gate, his lack of real talent would make for an easy title defense...

They would also salivated at the chance to fight an Evander Holyfield...

Now, is this all really a joke?

Hell, I liked Holyfield...rooted for him to beat Tyson and Lewis...but even the most novice student of boxing history can see the difference between Holyfield's talent and the talent of the '70's 'big four'...

Are you related to Evander or something???

[Professor X]

[quote="dempseyfire"][quote="Professor X"][quote="Sweet Scientist"][quote="Professor X"] You lost out when you ddy the water's and clear things up a bit --The Holyfield (34 yrs old) that fought Tyson is better than the Ali (34 yrs old) that fought Young IMO.

[/quote]

Ali was 22 years old when he beat Sonny Liston for the HW championship. What was Holyfield doing at 22?? Making his pro cruiserweight debut vs Lionel Byram. Holyfield at 34-a professional of 35 fights, with 16 of those fights as a heavyweight over 8 years.
Ali when he fought Jimmy Young?? A profesional of 52 fights, over 15 world championship fights, and had fought against the best of a the heavyweight division for 13 years.
Those are two different 34 years old.[/quote]

No they're not. Ali had a nearly three year break away from boxing, and he wasn't in any wars in the 60's on top of that. His first war came when he was 29 yrs old against Frazier. Holyfield, coming up in weight, challening bigger heavy's, had just as much, or probably more, actually, wear and tear on his body. But he kept himself in better shape than Ali did...there's no comparison...and that's the difference.

And I was wrong, Sweet Scientist. You're a moron.

[Sweet Scientist]

...and you're completely full of shit....time to move on to other threads

[dempseyfire]

No they're not. Ali had a nearly three year break away from boxing, and he wasn't in any wars in the 60's on top of that. His first war came when he was 29 yrs old against Frazier. Holyfield, coming up in weight, challening bigger heavy's, had just as much, or probably more, actually, wear and tear on his body. But he kept himself in better shape than Ali did...there's no comparison...and that's the difference.

And I was wrong, Sweet Scientist. You're a moron.

Clay had a war with Doug Jones and also went 15 hard rounds with Chuvalo who had him pissing blood for the next few days, but let's further compare. Holyfield had 1 count it one 15 rd battle with Dwight Qawi.
Holyfield-3 fight trilogy with Bowe
Ali-3 fight trilogy with Frazier
Holyfield then had his battles with the (similary sized) old Michael Dokes, Alex Stewart, and Michael Moorer. You keep saying Evander kept facing these giants, but take away Bowe and an old Foreman and he was facing guys his size.
Ali had 12 rds and over battles with the likes of Oscar Bonavena, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle and knockout artist Mac Foster.
Holyfield fought a 43 yr old Grandpa Foreman
Ali fought a 24 yr old prime Foreman

Holyfield-I believe the best HW of the 90s but you can't compare their resumes it is LUDICROUS to suggest Evander has a better resume.

[ThatOne]

Ali via a wide decision

[Bricks]

I don`t know if a thread has been asked on this before.
.

Great thread. Food for thought.

The Holyfield of the 90's especially the one who fought bowe and foreman would be very interesting!

[ThatOne]

Evander Hollyfield could be argued to have fought a better group of boxers that Ali did.Put it this way the best name that Ali beat, be it Liston, Frazier or Foreman, can you see any of them beating the Bowe that Evander beat?
Liston was a very worn fighter when Ali fought him ( and that’s if it wasn’t a tank job?).
Frazier would have been fodder for Evander. Tyson was a better version of the same.
And Foreman may just have given Evander a tough time due to his size, but the thing is Evander has shown size is not enough to beat him, Ali was never a big puncher so if Evander could stand up to Tyson when Evander also was past his best means Ali would never have a punchers chance and this leads me to the last part, Evander would have just too much for Ali, could Ali outbox him? never, out punch him? How?, what with?

Respectfully, that's just wrong. Ali beat six IBHOFERS in their prime except for The Mongoose-Moore, Liston, Patterson,Frazier, Foreman, and Norton. Holyfield beat two future IBHOFERS- Tyson and Holmes, one was past his prime and the other was way past his prime.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holyfield loses badly to a peak Ali. Quite.

[The Great John L]

Holyfield loses badly to a peak Ali. Quite.

Yeah, I'm puzzled by how many seem to think Holy would have been a tough fight or maybe could have even beaten Ali. For the most part, Hollfyield did best against guys who stood in the pocket, and had more problems with movers with a good jab. Of course, that's true of most fighters, but certainly Ali looks to me like a terrible style matchup for Holyfield.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holyfield loses badly to a peak Ali. Quite.

Yeah, I'm puzzled by how many seem to think Holy would have been a tough fight or maybe could have even beaten Ali. For the most part, Hollfyield did best against guys who stood in the pocket, and had more problems with movers with a good jab. Of course, that's true of most fighters, but certainly Ali looks to me like a terrible style matchup for Holyfield.

It's looking 10-5 on my scorecard.

[ThatOne]

Liston was a very worn fighter when Ali fought him

-tonyevs

He was 35-1 when he faced Ali, coming off huge wins over Floyd Patterson

[The Great John L]

It's looking 10-5 on my scorecard.

And that might be generous for Evander.

[ThatOne]

I care that Holyfield looked better than Clay did as an Olympic light-heavy, dempseyfire. Thats a damn good mythical matchup if I do say so myself (throw Olympic light-heavy Michael Spinks in there, while you're at it).

-professorX

At least Ali and Spinks brought back Olympic Gold not the Miss Congeniality prize.

[The Great John L]

Liston was a very worn fighter when Ali fought him

-tonyevs

He was 35-1 when he faced Ali, coming off huge wins over Floyd Patterson

Clearly Liston was never the same after he got his jaw broken by Marshall nearly a decade before he faced Ali. After that point he was "damaged goods". Yes, he won a lot of fights, but you can see it in the tapes of his subsequent fights that he just wasn't as good.

[ThatOne]

Ali had a nearly three year break away from boxing

-professorX

Saying Ali had a three year break from boxing is like saying John Kennedy voluntarily relinquished the office of the presidency. He was unjustly stripped of his title during what would have been the best fighting years of his life.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Unjustly in your opinion. It's not a fact.

[ThatOne]

Unjustly in your opinion. It's not a fact.

I guess what is just and what is unjust is subjective however he was exonerated by the Supreme Court of the United State Of America:


Therefore the Supreme Court Justices decided (8-0 with Thurgood Marhall abstaining) in favor of Muhammad Ali

http://www.aavw.org/protest/ali_alivus_abstract08.html

And I would think if he was a draft resister and not a conscientious objector as he claimed he wouldn't have been honored by Congress nor invited to the White House by four American presidents;two Democratic and two Republican. And he certainly wouldn't have received the Medal Of Freedom ,the highest civilian award from President George Bush.

But if folks want to believe his persecution was just and warranted that is their right.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He was exonerated because their opinion aligned to yours.

A man's decision is still a man's, & therefore, potentially flawed. A Government body doesn't translate it into fact.

Whether or not Ali was unjustly stripped is purely a matter of opinion for everybody, from fight fans to judges involved with the case. IMO, & IMO only, stripping was entirely justified.

[ThatOne]

He was exonerated because their opinion aligned to yours.

A man's decision is still a man's, & therefore, potentially flawed. A Government body doesn't translate it into fact.

Whether or not Ali was unjustly stripped is purely a matter of opinion for everybody, from fight fans to judges involved with the case. IMO, & IMO only, stripping was entirely justified.

I should have used "unlawful" instead of "unjust" because the stripping of his title was certainly unlawful. And it is the rule of law that that separates us from the rule of the jungle.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's still a jungle we're living in.

[Klee Gluckman]

Holy could beat Ali. Holy has the chin and the skill to do it. Im not saying Im backing Evander because Im not, but if there were 3 fights Evander would at least 1.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holy could beat Ali. Holy has the chin and the skill to do it. Im not saying Im backing Evander because Im not, but if there were 3 fights Evander would at least 1.

Can't see it. Not for the life of me.

[hhaehre]

Holy could beat Ali. Holy has the chin and the skill to do it. Im not saying Im backing Evander because Im not, but if there were 3 fights Evander would at least 1.

Anyone who could throw a decent jab troubled Holyfield, hell almost every heavyweight he fought troubled him to some extent. I'm no great fan of Ali but Holyfield must be one of the most overrated heavy weights ever to grace the ring. Holyfield would NEVER beat Ali or Frazier for that matter.