Apparent dives

[Goodnight, Irene]

Famous fights oft reputed to have been fixed:

Jim Hall KO4 over Bob Fitzsimmons
Tom Sharkey W-DQ9 over Jim Corbett
Jim Corbett KO5 over Kid McCoy
Terrible Terry McGovern KO2 over Joe Gans
Fireman Jim Flynn KO1 over Jack Dempsey
Tony Fuente KO1 over Fred Fulton (several other fights toward end of FF's career)
Primo Carnera W-DQ4 over Young Stribling
Young Stribling W-DQ7 over Primo Carnera
Primo Carnera W-DQ5 over George Godfrey
Primo Carnera KO6 over Jack Sharkey (many other fights throughout PC's career)
Rex Layne W10 over Jersey Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano KO1 over Jersey Joe Walcott
Muhammad Ali TKO1 over Sonny Liston

You should include Ali's first victory over Liston, as some people consider that more likely a set-up than the rematch.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Its Willies tank jobs that in my mind prevent him from being an all time great.
We cant expect our champs to be saints. After all,boxing aint a maypole dance.
However, I think character in the ring should count when we are grading the best.
Doing the old flip flop reflects very poorly on all time great status.
Cant do it. Cant take a dive and thats where its at." - Ex-Pug

What is your take on fighters shaming themselves outside the ring, & its effect on their status in history? Are unsavoury characters (a Mike Tyson, or Carlos Monzon, for instance) precluded from greatness, in your view?

[jaclem2]

....on skill and with his remarkable record, there is no doubt that willie pep was one of the greatest fighters of all time. hsi number of wins in along career is astonishing.

the "questionable losses" are fewer than a handful.

Some fight followers think that all three of his losses to saddler were suspect...others think in the last two he just quit; still others say the losses were to legit injuries. going back to the beginning of their series, the word was all around jacobs beach that it was going to be a tank job...so strong were the rumors that the boxing commissioner called both fighters into his office and said considering the last minute dramatic change of odds...willie fell from favorite to loser...that they had better not even look as if anything was going on. No films of the first fight exist, so there's no visual record, and sports writers at the time thought the knockout was on the square. A few thought he could have got back up but was genuinely hurt and just not wanting to take any more punishment. In none of their fights was saddler ever even suspected of being in on a fix.

[Darling]

Since i been accused of taking a dive (which i can assure you i havent) i got to thinking of famous dives and suspect ones. tex cobb vs dee collier, lamotta vs fox, munn vs anderson, are just a few.

I'm happy to play along, Rufus.

Who in their right mind suggested you took a dive?

My friend, you stepped unprepared right into your fantasy and you were bashed senseless by a fellow who was 100 times better than you in all areas of the noble art. Still, I take my bowler hat off to you for getting in there and getting as sound a whipping as one man can get in 2 minutes. I respect you for having the nads to climb those steps;your heart must have been pumping overtime when you saw the guy you were meeting.

Now don't get all bent out of shape and start blowing hard in my direction. I have given you the kudos you deserve. Boxing is a bloody hard business. You played your part, And no one can take that way from you.

But please, no mention of dives. You were hammered according to plan. Still, like I said, it takes a certain kind of courage to go thru with what we all knew was gonna happen once the opponents name was revealed.

You have said since then that you want to continue but at your own level. Good man, I, for one, will cheer you on against guys at the same level as yourself.

[Expug]

"Its Willies tank jobs that in my mind prevent him from being an all time great.
We cant expect our champs to be saints. After all,boxing aint a maypole dance.
However, I think character in the ring should count when we are grading the best.
Doing the old flip flop reflects very poorly on all time great status.
Cant do it. Cant take a dive and thats where its at." - Ex-Pug

What is your take on fighters shaming themselves outside the ring, & its effect on their status in history? Are unsavoury characters (a Mike Tyson, or Carlos Monzon, for instance) precluded from greatness, in your view?

I think when it comes to putting any athlete in a hall of fame, in any sport, serious criminal activity should keep a guy out.
When it comes to boxing, I think a rape conviction, a murder conviction, or proof a guy threw some fights, should be seriously considered before induction.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Well, while I'm not completely comfortable with the above, I certainly prefer that approach to a certain someone around here using newspaper headlines, regardless of their nature, as a barometer for Hall Of Fame worthiness, effectively stating Exposure = Fame = HOF induction. Never mind the distinction between fame & infamy, apparently.

[HomicideHenry]

Since i been accused of taking a dive (which i can assure you i havent) i got to thinking of famous dives and suspect ones. tex cobb vs dee collier, lamotta vs fox, munn vs anderson, are just a few.

I'm happy to play along, Rufus. Who in their right mind suggested you took a dive? My friend, you stepped unprepared right into your fantasy and you were bashed senseless by a fellow who was 100 times better than you in all areas of the noble art. Still, I take my bowler hat off to you for getting in there and getting as sound a whipping as one man can get in 2 minutes. I respect you for having the nads to climb those steps;your heart must have been pumping overtime when you saw the guy you were meeting. Now don't get all bent out of shape and start blowing hard in my direction. I have given you the kudos you deserve. Boxing is a bloody hard business. You played your part, And no one can take that way from you. But please, no mention of dives. You were hammered

thanks

[raylawpc]

"Its Willies tank jobs that in my mind prevent him from being an all time great.
We cant expect our champs to be saints. After all,boxing aint a maypole dance.
However, I think character in the ring should count when we are grading the best.
Doing the old flip flop reflects very poorly on all time great status.
Cant do it. Cant take a dive and thats where its at." - Ex-Pug

What is your take on fighters shaming themselves outside the ring, & its effect on their status in history? Are unsavoury characters (a Mike Tyson, or Carlos Monzon, for instance) precluded from greatness, in your view?

I think when it comes to putting any athlete in a hall of fame, in any sport, serious criminal activity should keep a guy out.
When it comes to boxing, I think a rape conviction, a murder conviction, or proof a guy threw some fights, should be seriously considered before induction.

Its a Hall of Fame. Fame as opposed to infamy. Its not a Hall of All-Time Greats.

[Ric]

"Its Willies tank jobs that in my mind prevent him from being an all time great.
We cant expect our champs to be saints. After all,boxing aint a maypole dance.
However, I think character in the ring should count when we are grading the best.
Doing the old flip flop reflects very poorly on all time great status.
Cant do it. Cant take a dive and thats where its at." - Ex-Pug

What is your take on fighters shaming themselves outside the ring, & its effect on their status in history? Are unsavoury characters (a Mike Tyson, or Carlos Monzon, for instance) precluded from greatness, in your view?

I think when it comes to putting any athlete in a hall of fame, in any sport, serious criminal activity should keep a guy out.
When it comes to boxing, I think a rape conviction, a murder conviction, or proof a guy threw some fights, should be seriously considered before induction.

Or, just because you won a heavyweight, you are automatically a shoo-in.

[bluerosekiller]

A lot of Butterbean's "King of the Four Rounders" matches on the undercards of Arum PPVs & on Top Rank Boxing etc. were clear dives or "bail outs" by the opponents. So much so that I have to wonder how bad some of his off TV matches were in regards to legitimacy.

I'm not saying that his whole career was bogus or that he couldn't fight/punch a bit. But, it was clear that many of his opponents had a take the money & run attitude.

[Evander]

Tyson v Seldon