Boxin triva/Did u know??Ketchel's kd of Jack Johnson was BS?

[Brutu]

Has anyone here ever seen the entire 12 rounds of Johnson-Ketchel?
here is a link to the BIG FIGHTS INC. television broadcast of some highlights of rounds one,two and eight.
(Round 7,Ketchels best round is missing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ0Lufb4tUI

[Brutu]

more highlights of Rounds eight, ten and twelve.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqokK9KR1Mo

[ebeneezer]

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news/bearden2006.php

[Brutu]

I read some of the various newspaper articles just after the fight.It appeared to many,that the right hand Ketchel landed on Johnson in the 12th,did not look like it had a lot of force on it to many,and were surprised that Johnson went to the canvas.
Reportly Ketchel had landed a harder right hand in the 11th round.

[Brutu]

Also its a misnomer that Johnson jumped off the canvas and landed just a single right punch that knocked Ketchel out.
According to the people at ringside and newspapers,he jumped up,landed a right to Ketchle's head,then a left to body and then another right to Ketchels mouth.

[Brutu]

more highlights of Rounds eight, ten and twelve.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqokK9KR1Mo

I watched this same print(the only one known?)on the DVD UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS a few years ago,and examined
the knock down by Ketchel and the knock out blow(s)by Johnson.FRAME-BY-FRAME.
It looks to me like Johnson was starting to fall to the canvas before Ketchel's glove even landed on back end side of head.

[Brutu]

It also appears to me, having watched the footage on DVD frame-by-frame,that Johnson's first right cross punch immediately after jumping off the canvas,
may actually have been an elbow slammed into Ketchel's mouth?
This would explain his 2 front teeth having been loosened enough,so that they became imbedded into Johnson's glove when he landed the second right into Ketchel's mouth?
Does the first"punch" look like it may have been actually an elbow to the mouth to u guys?

[Darling]

[Caractacus]

Bump

[cfang]

Well Johnson certainly made a mess out of Ketchel with those jabs and uppercuts. However, he defo carried him. there's a bit in the film where he has to grab Ketchel and lift him up to stop him going down.

Ketchel really could bang with that right hand and the knockdown looks legit to me. Johnson getting up and koing Ketchel just proves that he was carrying him. I'm not sure about an arrangement but fighters made a fortune from the movie rights back then and so I reckon johnson keep it going so as to get more money long term.

[Caractacus]

I just re-examined the surviving fight footage of this bout,and in my observation the friggen punch by Ketchel didnt even land !
What BS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9z-NsdvXAU

[Caractacus]

Do you think Stanley Ketchel would have had a better chance against Jack Johnson if he had"Beefed" up some?

[keithmoonhangover]

I still cant believe that it is still being said and reported by so called boxing historians that
Stanely Ketchel,"double-crossed"Jack Johnson,
departed from a script and then tried to knock Jack Johnson out.
Its been well documented in other sources that Jack Johnson was actually rehearsing being knock down at Seal Rock in San Francisco for a full 10 days
to perfect the technique(under various circumstances) before the actual fight with Stanley Ketchel.
Ketchel knew nothing about it,but Johnson's manager George Little was in on it
Why?
They wanted to get ass's in seats at the movie houses to see Johnson get knocked down as well as trick Stanley Ketchel into being open for an uppercut.

Bullshit. In the early rounds, it was a tough fight, where Johnson landed a lot of hard shots, busting up Ketchel's face. It was fought at a brisk pace and there is nothing in the fight that show an arrangement.

[knockouts67]

No way!!! Johnson was pissed at being knocked down and immediately knocked Ketchel's teeth out and put him out! If there was an arrangement it was maybe to carry him awhile---something Johnson did a lot of. So much for that!!

[Caractacus]

As refered to another post.
watch the fight film again
this time frame by frame,
Johnson appears to have hit Ketchel in the mouth with his elbow.
which knocked out his gum shield and loosened his teeth
so that the next punch that Johnson actually landed,Ketchels teeth became imbedded in Jack Johnson's glove.
I think Jack Johnson may have gone down on purpose,
so that he could land a really hard and vicious punch on him,
without people being sorry for Ketchel.

[pound per pound]

Also its a misnomer that Johnson jumped off the canvas and landed just a single right punch that knocked Ketchel out.
According to the people at ringside and newspapers,he jumped up,landed a right to Ketchle's head,then a left to body and then another right to Ketchels mouth.

Reports say Johnson was buzzed when he was floored. He got caught with a wild shot. Went down. Rolled over, and braced himself to get up, then attacked. He then landed on Ketchel, but fell down during the process which suggests his balance wasn't all there. Not sure if he elbowed Ketchel first or not.

I think Johnson played a bit for the cameras, got caught, then finished things. Johnson was sporting a mark from an earlier blow that Ketchel landed. The fight was real.

If this was fixed, they didn't follow script. And if an arrangement is in, it reflects poorly on Ketchel and Johnson. What other fights did they have that were not on the level?

[Caractacus]

The fight was not fixed or any pre-arangments.
Johnson went down breifly for the benifit of the camera
so some haters would go to the cinema again and again just to see
Jack Johnson"almost" get knocked out.

[Ambling Alp II]

Gunboat Smith who sparred with Johnson and was at the fight said something to that effect. There was a time early in the fight (I want to say the 3rd round) where it appeared that Johnson hurt Ketchel and Ketchel started to go down and Johnson grabbed him and kept him from going down.

On the other hand, I guess I am skeptical. Why wait all the way to the 12th round if you are Johnson? Surely the film sales would have been just as good if it went say 8 rounds. He is also taking a risk in letting a fight continue, even against an overmatched opponent. He could hurt his hand or something.

[Cap]

Jack Johnson had an ego the size of an elephant. He knew that little Stanley Ketchel had no chance of hurting him so he decided to play to the cameras because that's what they wanted. Back then no one would pay to see Ketchel just get slaughtered in a few rounds. It had to at least "appear" to be competitive to get the rubes to pay their nickels and dimes. [In the pre-fight pictures, Ketchel wore high-heeled cowboy boots to make him seem taller next to Johnson] Johnson likely was surprised by Ketchel but he wasn't hurt. He probably would have knocked him out or beat him up badly enough for the referee to stop it sooner or later.

[L.A. kidd]

I watched the film of the fight, and yes, ketchel was no match for Johnson however, ketchel did catch him, and knocked him down.

it appears to me Johnson got mad and hit ketchel with his elbow, and then hit him with a right that knocked his teeth out.

Johnson was never as great as some have made him out to be. he fought Littler men than himself and shoved them around the
ring. he said he threw the fight with Willard, and if one watches that fight you can see he can't bully Willard. he got his ass beat!!

[Caractacus]

yeah "Big Wheeler" done run over Jack Johnson in that one.

[Caractacus]

I still feel watching the film,that it was an elbow strike to the mouth that loosened Ketchal's teeth
before Johnson actually punched there by imbedding his teeth in it.

[Caractacus]

see what I mean ?

[Caractacus]

Jack Johnson also stated in his 1927 autobiography that he alone decided to allow Ketchel to knock him down before going into the ring
Johnson told his sparring partner Bob Armstrong not to be alarmed if he saw him on the canvas in one of the rounds.

No wonder Ken Burn's tried to discredit Jack Johnson's own words in his own autobiography.

[Caractacus]

Does anyone know what the Tale-of-the-Tape for Johnson vrs Ketchal was ?
was Ketchel 5 ft 7" (wikipedia )or 5 ft 9"( Boxrec) to Jack Johnson's 6 ft 1" ?
How much did Ketchel weigh you think ?
157 lbs to Johnson's 209 lbs ?
the reach was 70 " to 74 ".
(btw it was reported that one of Ketchel's teeth became imbedded in Johnson's glove from an uppercut earlier in the 7th round )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj38GcAM8zI