Froch latest!

[Autobarn]

Let's get things in perspective here...........

Froch's title fight with Pascal could have gone either way at times, he was out-classed by Jermain Taylor and floored in the process, before Taylor's stamina problems and naivety in those final two rounds, saw him being knocked out with seconds remaining. Then he gets a split decision over Dirrel, a fight in which many people thought Dirrell had won and then got comprehensively beaten by Kessler recently.

Froch is one of those fighters that occupy a space between being too good for the European level and a little bit short at world level. Froch has never really progressed in terms of his fighting style, never adjusts to his opponents and the only difference between now and at the start of his career, is that the highter he goes, the more his limited style gets negated by higher quality opponents. Froch has always concentrated on what he is going to do in a fight and has believed that his power, stamina, courage and durable chin will see him through.

I personally believe that Froch has reached his potential and i think the Abraham fight will be another tough one and close one at that, it wouldn't suprise me if Froch lost. He can go on about home town decisions all he likes, but i don't think he would ever beat Kessler, even if he fought him five or six times. Froch has a limited style and in the main it's been found wanting at world level and whilst he can be exciting to watch, he wont be the man to win this super-Six series and would imagine he may retire if it all falls apart against Abraham

ppl do fixate on the stamina problems of taylor, don't they?

so if you're tired late in a fight, if you fade late on = certain KO defeat.

it was a hard earned, thrilling win for froch, and probably will be the high point of his career, so let's not take that away from him.

DLH is notorious for being an 8 round fighter but he only got stopped by a much bigger man (hopkins) and a much smaller man (pac) when he was emaciated from weight making.

[alexpaterson]

How have the home town decisions been bad? Kessler won clearly, the only bad one was in Nottingham.

[Quixall]

Froch is one of those fighters that occupy a space between being too good for the European level and a little bit short at world level.

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. He clearly belongs at world level, as proven by his victories over the likes of Taylor and Pascal AND by his close defeat to Kessler, who's one of the best super-middles around since the division's inception.

I don't think it's nonsense to say that he is "a little bit short" at world level. I didn't say that he couldn't operate at world level, just that he will never be consistent at that level. Don't apologise for an opinion you belive in, because it just reaks of insincerity.

[Spud]

Carl Froch is a legitimate world class fighter - ffs I seriously wonder about peoples boxing knowledge on here sometimes!!!

[Asterix]

Carl Froch is a legitimate world class fighter - ffs I seriously wonder about peoples boxing knowledge on here sometimes!!!

Agreed. He's obviously World class. He beat Jean Pascal, who won a World light heavyweight title 6 months later. He beat former middleweight champ, and still highly regarded, Jermain Taylor. He beat Andre Dirrell, who has just beaten Arthur Abraham.

Those kind of results only come from someone who is World class. Froch is somewhat limited and has quite a list of faults, but his results speak for themselves.

[Autobarn]

froch lost very narrowly to kessler, as i saw it. i don't think he had reason to whine, he should have kept on kessler after he hurt him. that was the best chance but kessler just had the better strategy and this made the marginal difference in that fight.

[jameswilson]

I said that Froch was inbetween the Euro level and world level, not just above the European level.......

Froch was rocked quite a few times by Pascal and it wasn't an assured performance by any means. The Taylor fight, i would have said that Taylor was between 3 and 4 rounds ahead and in my opinion he definately out-classed Froch. Taylor did and does have stamina issues, but he was plain naive to allow himself to get undone in the last two rounds and it was pure luck that Froch got the knock-out with around 8 seconds of the fight to go. You also failed to mention the Dirrel fight, which i feel Froch lost and so did many others and he was also comprehensively beaten by Kessler. I'm not basing my observations on a comparison to Joe Calzaghe, i just made that comment because the previous poster had mentioned Calzaghe in relation to Froch. I have gone on record on this site, many months ago, before Froch even won a world title and outlined what i saw as his weaknesses and how he would find the world scene very tough to handle. This is what the site is all about, having opinions and your entitled to yours, but i do think that your reaction to my post is rather telling and perhaps being a Froch fan, you are a little too subjective in your comments. I stick by my comments about Froch

Define an assured performance then. Your idea of an assured performance I feel is a dominant performance, I had Froch beating pascal by 3 or 4 rounds. I had Kessler winning by a round or 2. You might come back saying you had Kessler winning every round and had Froch beating Pascal by a point but personally I would say Froch beat Pascal more convincingly than Kessler beat Froch, and yet you are making out like beating Pascal does not make Froch World class. Where do you rank Pascal in the Light heavies at the mo? Is he World class?

There is a clear trend in pretty much every Froch fight since he has become Champ and that is he goes behind early and then comes on strong late on as he wears his opponent down. Dirrell just turned up and ran away until late on, and the judges and some of us scored him down for clinching nearly all the time (I think someones made a vid and counted clinches, there were about 10 clinches in some rounds) whereas others didn't. Lets get it right and have some consistency if Junior Witter does it against Judah and gets scored down, and if we get annoyed when Sven Ottke wins his fights by landing 5 shots a round then lets not go making allowances elsewhere for Dirrell. Against Abraham he didn't fight the same way, still on the back foot but planting his feet and landing a lot of shots aggresively. If he had done that against Froch and not got caught late then he would have won every round as he is so much quicker than Froch.

The Taylor fight you just stun me by saying he landed a shot with 8 seconds left. Down the stretch Froch was clearly getting to Taylor and in the last round he landed a big shot with about 2 - 2mins 30 to go. Not 8 seconds, that had Taylor rocked, moving backwards and shipping punishment, far worse than Froch was ever 'rocked' against Pascal. He then knocks him down with about 30-40 seconds left before trapping him on the ropes and landing an unanswered barrage that had Taylor sinking forward. It was a legitimate stoppage win, in a fight where Froch was behind early and then came on strong late on. Not a fight where he took a schooling for 12 rounds, hardly landed anything and with 10 seconds left pulled a hail mary punch out of the bag. Taylor was tired because Froch was constantly moving forward forcing him to throw punches. I may be a Froch fan but I am a realist and I know when people are being unfair. And people who shrug their shoulders and say 'so what' to wins over Pascal and Taylor and then scream 'I tooooooooold ya so' as soon as he loses to Kessler, are being unfair, in my opinion.

Nothing personal tho Quix, you clearly know your stuff, but like you say we just disagree a lot on this.

[Quixall]

To JamesWilson:

Yeah, we will have to disagree on this lol

I would concede on some of the things you are saying, but i think the meaning gets lost in the words sometimes and i see you as being over praiseworthy and you see me as being too critical. I believe that Froch can operate at world level, but i don't beleive he will ever be consistent at that level and a lot of Froch fights are white knuckle rides, which i suppose is a good thing for us fans. I have watched Carl since his first fight and whilst he's not my favourite fighter, i aways want him to win and support him. He has aaid a few silly things lately, but all fighters do that at some time and i still think that he is an honest pro, who normally tells it as it is........apart from Froch's rantings regarding Joe Calzaghe lol

What do you think Froch will do against Abraham ? and also, if Froch got a re-match with Kessler at home, do you think he would win ?

Quix

[Deserter]

Froch is one of those fighters that occupy a space between being too good for the European level and a little bit short at world level.

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. He clearly belongs at world level, as proven by his victories over the likes of Taylor and Pascal AND by his close defeat to Kessler, who's one of the best super-middles around since the division's inception.

I don't think it's nonsense to say that he is "a little bit short" at world level. I didn't say that he couldn't operate at world level, just that he will never be consistent at that level. Don't apologise for an opinion you belive in, because it just reaks of insincerity.

There's no insincerity, I was just keen to convey the fact that I didn't want the strong refuting of your claim to be taken personally.
Back to the issue in hand - you seem to be confusing elite level with world level... Froch is very clearly not 'short' at world level, as illustrated by his victories over over world level opponents. You didn't mention anything about consistency in your original post.

[Spud]

Exactly - world class and elite or pound 4 pound are completely different things.

Froch has done fantastically well and been in some terrific exciting fights.

[Deserter]

Exactly - world class and elite or pound 4 pound are completely different things.

Froch has done fantastically well and been in some terrific exciting fights.

In the way you define it. Obviously other people define world class differently.

So beating the likes of Pascal and Taylor and losing narrowly to Kessler isn't enough to define you as world class? If not, what is?

[Spud]

Ask yourselves this - Kessler v Calzaghe - how close did you have that fight and be honest.

Kessler in my view has had one bad fight and that was against Andre Ward - and even then some will argue that was one fight where the "fouls"/accidental headbuts got the better of Kessler.

FFS - Froch has done bloody brilliant - how many boxers hold a legimate world title - and how many fighters from this country have entered into the fray of genuinally taking on the very best in their division - as good as Calzaghe was he f*cking didnt.

[Deserter]

In the way you define it. Obviously other people define world class differently.

So beating the likes of Pascal and Taylor and losing narrowly to Kessler isn't enough to define you as world class? If not, what is?

I was talking about his distinguishing between world class and elite. I wouldn't say they was an elite class, that's what I would call world class, and beating Pascal an Taylor doesn't put you in that group.

So just to get this right, by your criteria those three current or former world belt holders are not world class fighters?

[Deserter]

I was talking about his distinguishing between world class and elite. I wouldn't say they was an elite class, that's what I would call world class, and beating Pascal an Taylor doesn't put you in that group.

So just to get this right, by your criteria those three current or former world belt holders are not world class fighters?

Winning an alphabet title doesn't make you world class. Jermaine Taylor was a top fighter though.

So what exactly is your criteria for world class? And once you've defined that, what do you call the fighters like Froch and Pascal who to your mind doesn't reside at that level?

[Deserter]

So what exactly is your criteria for world class? And once you've defined that, what do you call the fighters like Froch and Pascal who to your mind doesn't reside at that level?

Title winners or belt holders.

But you haven't answered the first part of my question...

[Deserter]

Title winners or belt holders.

But you haven't answered the first part of my question...

Why would I? I think it's quite obvious isn't it? Take the guys you consider elite, and call them world class. Or do you want me to make a list of fighters I would call world class?

I'd definitely be interested in seeing a few examples and how many 'world-class' fighters you think there are operating at the moment...

[jameswilson]

To JamesWilson:

Yeah, we will have to disagree on this lol

I would concede on some of the things you are saying, but i think the meaning gets lost in the words sometimes and i see you as being over praiseworthy and you see me as being too critical. I believe that Froch can operate at world level, but i don't beleive he will ever be consistent at that level and a lot of Froch fights are white knuckle rides, which i suppose is a good thing for us fans. I have watched Carl since his first fight and whilst he's not my favourite fighter, i aways want him to win and support him. He has aaid a few silly things lately, but all fighters do that at some time and i still think that he is an honest pro, who normally tells it as it is........apart from Froch's rantings regarding Joe Calzaghe lol

What do you think Froch will do against Abraham ? and also, if Froch got a re-match with Kessler at home, do you think he would win ?

Quix

Yeah since this defeat Froch has said some silly things, I don't mind him saying he won't fight Abraham in Germany as at the end of the day he is saying he wants it on neutral ground, but saying he would have won had it been in Notts is one I'm a bit disappointed to see him saying. Like I say I scored it to Kessler by a round or 2. If they were to have a rematch I'd expect another close one, I hope these 2 have a trilogy in the coming years as I think their 2 styles will give good fights every time.

Against Abraham I can't call it (obviously I'll root for Froch.) If Froch can take Abraham's shots and not get knocked out cold he may again be able to come on late. Abraham has his own weaknesses when it comes to work rate in my opinion, he doesn't throw many punches a round but usually they are the better looking shots and in Germany that wins him rounds. In saying that I may be being unfair as at the end of the day he was beating Jermaine Taylor going into the last and not many people manage to get ahead of Taylor on the cards. I also have seen people describe Abraham's defence as shell like but while it is good I don't necassarily agree with that as he had a bit of a bust up face against Taylor and Dirrell, so making him out to be the second coming of Mayweather defensively is wide of the mark. Basically Froch can win but it is as tough a fight as any he has had before.

[Deserter]

Why would I? I think it's quite obvious isn't it? Take the guys you consider elite, and call them world class. Or do you want me to make a list of fighters I would call world class?

I'd definitely be interested in seeing a few examples and how many 'world-class' fighters you think there are operating at the moment...

Three. Mayweather, Pacqauio and Marquez. Hopkins was a world class fighter, but I don't know if he'll ever fight again, or if you could call him a world class fighter still.

Fair enough fella. For me it's far too narrow a definition - i just can't get my head around only three boxers in the entire world being 'world class', but I accept it's all about opinions
I have to say that even given that narrow scope, I'm surprised at the inclusion of Marquez given his recent performances and his failure to ever dominate a weight division. Mayweather's victory over him also highlighted a gulf in class (even allowing for the weight disparity) that isn't recognised in your 'seeding'.

[Quixall]

I think we can all see some merit in each other's opinions and in the end it comes down to opinions, how your arguments are worded and how people define what is mean't by "world level" "elite" etc. I think that certain fighters are NOT at world level such as Murray. Then you get fighters that have a dip at world level, who soar then crash very quickly, ie, Gavin Rees. Then you get people like Clinton Woods who can operate at world level, but not on a consistent basis. Then you get someone like Ricky Hatton who operates at world level very succesfully and finally you get what would be called the elite fighter, ie, Mayweather, Pacquiao, who dominate fighters and are virually unbeatable.

That's how i roughly see it, so don't shoot me down in flames lol

I'm trying to form a coalition here !!

[Deserter]

I think we can all see some merit in each other's opinions and in the end it comes down to opinions, how your arguments are worded and how people define what is mean't by "world level" "elite" etc. I think that certain fighters are NOT at world level such as Murray. Then you get fighters that have a dip at world level, who soar then crash very quickly, ie, Gavin Rees. Then you get people like Clinton Woods who can operate at world level, but not on a consistent basis. Then you get someone like Ricky Hatton who operates at world level very succesfully and finally you get what would be called the elite fighter, ie, Mayweather, Pacquiao, who dominate fighters and are virually unbeatable.

That's how i roughly see it, so don't shoot me down in flames lol

I'm trying to form a coalition here !!

I'm on board!

[Quixall]

I think we can all see some merit in each other's opinions and in the end it comes down to opinions, how your arguments are worded and how people define what is mean't by "world level" "elite" etc. I think that certain fighters are NOT at world level such as Murray. Then you get fighters that have a dip at world level, who soar then crash very quickly, ie, Gavin Rees. Then you get people like Clinton Woods who can operate at world level, but not on a consistent basis. Then you get someone like Ricky Hatton who operates at world level very succesfully and finally you get what would be called the elite fighter, ie, Mayweather, Pacquiao, who dominate fighters and are virually unbeatable.

That's how i roughly see it, so don't shoot me down in flames lol

I'm trying to form a coalition here !!

I'm on board!

Good, you can sit on the front bench with me !!

Only one thing to sort.......Who is going to be pm

Order, Order

[WildWaylon]

Let's get things in perspective here...........

Froch's title fight with Pascal could have gone either way at times, he was out-classed by Jermain Taylor and floored in the process, before Taylor's stamina problems and naivety in those final two rounds, saw him being knocked out with seconds remaining. Then he gets a split decision over Dirrel, a fight in which many people thought Dirrell had won and then got comprehensively beaten by Kessler recently.

Froch is one of those fighters that occupy a space between being too good for the European level and a little bit short at world level. Froch has never really progressed in terms of his fighting style, never adjusts to his opponents and the only difference between now and at the start of his career, is that the highter he goes, the more his limited style gets negated by higher quality opponents. Froch has always concentrated on what he is going to do in a fight and has believed that his power, stamina, courage and durable chin will see him through.

I personally believe that Froch has reached his potential and i think the Abraham fight will be another tough one and close one at that, it wouldn't suprise me if Froch lost. He can go on about home town decisions all he likes, but i don't think he would ever beat Kessler, even if he fought him five or six times. Froch has a limited style and in the main it's been found wanting at world level and whilst he can be exciting to watch, he wont be the man to win this super-Six series and would imagine he may retire if it all falls apart against Abraham

Cant disagree with any of that.

[WildWaylon]

I think we can all see some merit in each other's opinions and in the end it comes down to opinions, how your arguments are worded and how people define what is mean't by "world level" "elite" etc. I think that certain fighters are NOT at world level such as Murray. Then you get fighters that have a dip at world level, who soar then crash very quickly, ie, Gavin Rees. Then you get people like Clinton Woods who can operate at world level, but not on a consistent basis. Then you get someone like Ricky Hatton who operates at world level very succesfully and finally you get what would be called the elite fighter, ie, Mayweather, Pacquiao, who dominate fighters and are virually unbeatable.

That's how i roughly see it, so don't shoot me down in flames lol

I'm trying to form a coalition here !!

Again I think you are spot on.

[DavidPayne]

Put Froch in with:

Pudwill, Jimenez, Veit (x2), Manfredo et al and see what would happen. Yep, a long unbeaten record.

Though Bika may have beaten him.

I admire Froch for putting it on the line. When you do, you lose some. For fans on here who bemoan the over-protected unbeaten records to chastise him for losing against one of the top 3 fighters in the division on points away from home should have HYPOCRIT stamped on their head and take a vow of silence.

[johnswan1]

Why would I? I think it's quite obvious isn't it? Take the guys you consider elite, and call them world class. Or do you want me to make a list of fighters I would call world class?

I'd definitely be interested in seeing a few examples and how many 'world-class' fighters you think there are operating at the moment...

Three. Mayweather, Pacqauio and Marquez. Hopkins was a world class fighter, but I don't know if he'll ever fight again, or if you could call him a world class fighter still.

Only three world class fighters in the world? Are you for real? So on your reckoning the Klitschko brothers as one example will be known as dominant world champions whom fell short of being world class? Very odd.