Fighers who got Old at a young age

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 29 Mar 2005, 07:03

jamesmcdonnell wrote:No, but what he got was worse, he got a sustained battering, especially over the latter half of the fight. He took shots which would have felled a horse, but just refused to go down. I think that fight must have taken a lot out of him physically.

Thats quite possible. Although he did capture his world title after that fight.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 29 Mar 2005, 07:32

Mugabi was enormously over-rated.

Gave a sliding Hagler a tough fight but then lost in cowardly circumstances to Duane Thomas, beat a bunch of stiffs again as they tried to build his confidence up once more, finally won a 'world' title when his opponent injured his ankle, then lost his next 2 world title fights inside a round.

More myth than substance I'm afraid....

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 29 Mar 2005, 07:37

Harsh but maybe true. I would disagree though, nobody has ever labelled Francis a coward for his rematch loss vs Williams, it was a peach of thumb by Thomas and I don't think Mugabi could see (plus I think the connection was so strong that it stunned him as well as gave him pain).

He was in absolute control up untill that contest.

Yes, Hagler was on the slide - but the Marvelous one was still a fantastic fighter, he was still a fantastic fighter when he lost to Leonard. Fading yes, but tremendous nevertheless.

What happens if Taylor beats Hopkins or runs him close?

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 29 Mar 2005, 08:00

Goz wrote:Mugabi was enormously over-rated.

Gave a sliding Hagler a tough fight but then lost in cowardly circumstances to Duane Thomas, beat a bunch of stiffs again as they tried to build his confidence up once more, finally won a 'world' title when his opponent injured his ankle, then lost his next 2 world title fights inside a round.

More myth than substance I'm afraid....

Goz,

Watch his fights with Curtis Parker, Curtis Ramsey (A guy who took the young Ayala the distance after fighting Mugabi), Earl Hargrove, Frank Fletcher and James Green.

You would see that Mugabi was certainly not overrated, nor was he a coward.

He had a very brief prime, due to his enormous appetite for alcohol, women, junk food, smoking and partying. Not to metion car crashes and generally hating training.

He was one of the most colurful and talented middle/light middles of the 1980's.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 29 Mar 2005, 08:37

I must admit to not having seen much of the pre-Hagler John Mugabi, only some knockout highlight reels. And for me, guided by Mickey Duff, he was just a Junior-Middle/Middleweight Frank Bruno. Built up along a string of mismatches and then finding yourself in with Marvin Hagler.

I was obsessed with the Middleweight division in the 1980’s and these guys you mention Ramsey, Hargrove etc, I mean come on, decent enough trial-horses but hardly world rated top 10 fighters. Green was ok but lost to any decent fighter he fought.

Mugabi was your typical prospect-who-got-exposed, I just think people get carried away because he is a peripheral figure of that Middleweight ‘golden’ era,

Nigel Benn for example would have flattened him.

I will however concede that the Hagler whupping could have taken a hell of a lot out of him…..

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 29 Mar 2005, 09:07

Goz wrote:I must admit to not having seen much of the pre-Hagler John Mugabi, only some knockout highlight reels. And for me, guided by Mickey Duff, he was just a Junior-Middle/Middleweight Frank Bruno. Built up along a string of mismatches and then finding yourself in with Marvin Hagler.

I was obsessed with the Middleweight division in the 1980’s and these guys you mention Ramsey, Hargrove etc, I mean come on, decent enough trial-horses but hardly world rated top 10 fighters. Green was ok but lost to any decent fighter he fought.

Mugabi was your typical prospect-who-got-exposed, I just think people get carried away because he is a peripheral figure of that Middleweight ‘golden’ era,

Nigel Benn for example would have flattened him.

I will however concede that the Hagler whupping could have taken a hell of a lot out of him…..

I dont think Nigel Benn was half as good a boxer as Mugabi.

I reckon a prime Mugabi would have stopped him inside a round at Middleweight.

If Anthony Logan could do to Benn what he did, a prime Mugabi would not have let Benn of the hook.

Benn's style and poor defence would have suited Mugabi down to a tee.

Still, I note your comments, and respect your opinion, but do you really see the Benn that beat Doug DeWitt (or even Iran Barkely) going more than a few rounds with the Mugabi that fought Hagler?

J · Post by J » 29 Mar 2005, 09:17

hang on benn kod a peak barkley in a round, iran had just kod hearns in 3!
benn was a bit of an enigma to be honest but one thing is for sure no-one would have looked forward to facing him, for me despite his losses to domestic opposition he was the best of that era cos he was prepared to take on the best in the world, not just britain (barkley / g man)

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 29 Mar 2005, 09:22

J wrote:hang on benn kod a peak barkley in a round, iran had just kod hearns in 3!
benn was a bit of an enigma to be honest but one thing is for sure no-one would have looked forward to facing him, for me despite his losses to domestic opposition he was the best of that era cos he was prepared to take on the best in the world, not just britain (barkley / g man)

From memory Benn v Barkeley was years after Barkeley v Hearns. Also Barkeley was getting murdered before he Ko'd a chinny Hearns with a Haymaker.

I beleive that Barkely also wobbled Benn first.

Benn was extremely vulnerable in the early stages of a fight.

J · Post by J » 29 Mar 2005, 09:37

wel the first time he fought hearns was 2 years prior to benn and the second time when he sd' hearns was two years after so......

sorry graham but it always makes me laugh when people say things like well he was this and that, diesnt make any odds does it, its the end result that counts. Especially ina fight that only went a round mate. So he wobbled Benn but Benn knocked the fornicator out. End of.

Klitshko's loss to Lewis being a prime example.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Mar 2005, 09:40

Graham Brett wrote:
J wrote:hang on benn kod a peak barkley in a round, iran had just kod hearns in 3!
benn was a bit of an enigma to be honest but one thing is for sure no-one would have looked forward to facing him, for me despite his losses to domestic opposition he was the best of that era cos he was prepared to take on the best in the world, not just britain (barkley / g man)
From memory Benn v Barkeley was years after Barkeley v Hearns. Also Barkeley was getting murdered before he Ko'd a chinny Hearns with a Haymaker.

I beleive that Barkely also wobbled Benn first.

Benn was extremely vulnerable in the early stages of a fight.

Plenty of people wobbled Benn, he wasn't hard to hurt, but he was bloody hard to finish off.

In the Hagler fight, the only thing which kept him in the fight late on was the amount of punishment he was soaking up, he was really getting smashed to pieces for the last 3-4 rounds. I think his corner should have done him a mercy, because that was a pretty ferocious beating.

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 29 Mar 2005, 09:46

J wrote:wel the first time he fought hearns was 2 years prior to benn and the second time when he sd' hearns was two years after so......

sorry graham but it always makes me laugh when people say things like well he was this and that, diesnt make any odds does it, its the end result that counts. Especially ina fight that only went a round mate. So he wobbled Benn but Benn knocked the fornicator out. End of.

Klitshko's loss to Lewis being a prime example.

Lewis didnt knock Klitscko out, did he?

J · Post by J » 29 Mar 2005, 09:47

you know what i meant bro.
i.e. i would have won if and buts and YOU DIDNT. move on.

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 29 Mar 2005, 09:56

J wrote:you know what i meant bro.
i.e. i would have won if and buts and YOU DIDNT. move on.

Why should I move on?

I was adressing Goz' contention that Benn would have flattended Mugabi?

Anyway, fighters who got old early, how about Benny Lynch?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Mar 2005, 09:56

There's an old irish saying which springs to mind...

".....and if I had a square arse, I'd shit bricks."

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 29 Mar 2005, 09:57

jamesmcdonnell wrote:There's an old irish saying which springs to mind...

".....and if I had a square arse, I'd shit bricks."

Thought bricks were rectangular?

J · Post by J » 29 Mar 2005, 10:01

Graham Brett wrote:
J wrote:you know what i meant bro.
i.e. i would have won if and buts and YOU DIDNT. move on.
Why should I move on?

I was adressing Goz' contention that Benn would have flattended Mugabi?

Anyway, fighters who got old early, how about Benny Lynch?

mate you are misinterpreting everything i write here.

Sorry if im not being very clear but it didnt mean you, i mean "people" and to some extent Vitliai, who bang on about what could have should have but didnt happen. Wasnt aimed at you.
shessh, like pulling teeth this

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 29 Mar 2005, 10:01

Goz wrote:Mugabi was enormously over-rated.

Gave a sliding Hagler a tough fight but then lost in cowardly circumstances to Duane Thomas, beat a bunch of stiffs again as they tried to build his confidence up once more, finally won a 'world' title when his opponent injured his ankle, then lost his next 2 world title fights inside a round.

More myth than substance I'm afraid....

Can someone remind me...wasn't his loss to Duane Thomas the fight when he got a thumb in the eye? Nearly gouged it out and swelled up really badly immediately? Looked horrific if I remember rightly...

Just looking back, that fight was on my 15th birthday, ye Gods that's a long time ago!

Just a bit of friendly advice Goz - use words like 'cowardly' very rarely. Certainly doesn't match Mugabi.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 29 Mar 2005, 10:17

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
Goz wrote:Mugabi was enormously over-rated.

Gave a sliding Hagler a tough fight but then lost in cowardly circumstances to Duane Thomas, beat a bunch of stiffs again as they tried to build his confidence up once more, finally won a 'world' title when his opponent injured his ankle, then lost his next 2 world title fights inside a round.

More myth than substance I'm afraid....
Can someone remind me...wasn't his loss to Duane Thomas the fight when he got a thumb in the eye? Nearly gouged it out and swelled up really badly immediately? Looked horrific if I remember rightly...

Just looking back, that fight was on my 15th birthday, ye Gods that's a long time ago!

Just a bit of friendly advice Goz - use words like 'cowardly' very rarely. Certainly doesn't match Mugabi.

Ian, if possible (or Anal enough!) you could scan my previous 1000+ posts for the word ‘coward’ and you wouldn’t find it (unless I was talking about myself of course), so I do use it very sparingly.

And in Mugabi’s case I stand by it. I’m not labelling him a coward as he proved his bravery in other situations, Hagler being a prime example, but I still say that in that fight with Duane Thomas (and I have this on video) he basically quit the fight and in my opinion suspiciously.

For people who haven’t seen the fight, it wasn’t a clear thumb, some make it sound like Thomas gouged his eye in a clinch and that didn’t happen, it was a punch. Admittedly Mugabi probably did catch the thumb part of the glove in the eye and that must be excruciatingly painful but he didn’t want to know at all after that. I don’t recall it swelling up that badly either AND he wasn’t dominating the fight leading up to the end, Mugabi was most definitely in a fight with Thomas.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Mar 2005, 10:22

Graham Brett wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:There's an old irish saying which springs to mind...

".....and if I had a square arse, I'd shit bricks."
Thought bricks were rectangular?

You're arse is round, but is doesn't mean you shit spheres does it now?

Likewise, you wouldn't shit cubes if you had a square arse, oh and a rectangle is two dimensional, I think you mean a cuboid....

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 29 Mar 2005, 10:23

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Graham Brett wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:There's an old irish saying which springs to mind...

".....and if I had a square arse, I'd shit bricks."
Thought bricks were rectangular?
You're arse is round, but is doesn't mean you shit spheres does it now?

Likewise, you wouldn't shit cubes if you had a square arse, oh and a rectangle is two dimensional, I think you mean a cuboid....

Oh fornicate this, its getting too technical.

What are your thoughts on Benny Lynch as a young "old" fighter?

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 29 Mar 2005, 10:24

I think I can best put it this way: I don’t think Mugabi is as good as most do and believe if another fighter had quit in exactly the same fashion in a fight then he would have been absolutely hammered for it, someone like Lennox Lewis would have been slaughtered. Even Duane Thomas probably would have been.

Anyway, fighters that turned old when they were still young, how about Azumah Nelson or Larry Holmes?

Just joking…..

J · Post by J » 29 Mar 2005, 10:25

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Graham Brett wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:There's an old irish saying which springs to mind...

".....and if I had a square arse, I'd shit bricks."
Thought bricks were rectangular?
You're arse is round, but is doesn't mean you shit spheres does it now?

Likewise, you wouldn't shit cubes if you had a square arse, oh and a rectangle is two dimensional, I think you mean a cuboid....

this thread has gone to shit

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Mar 2005, 10:31

Graham Brett wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Graham Brett wrote: Thought bricks were rectangular?
You're arse is round, but is doesn't mean you shit spheres does it now?

Likewise, you wouldn't shit cubes if you had a square arse, oh and a rectangle is two dimensional, I think you mean a cuboid....

Oh fornicate this, its getting too technical.

What are your thoughts on Benny Lynch as a young "old" fighter?

I find myself 'caught between two stools' on that one.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 29 Mar 2005, 10:37

Goz wrote:
Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
Goz wrote:Mugabi was enormously over-rated.

Gave a sliding Hagler a tough fight but then lost in cowardly circumstances to Duane Thomas, beat a bunch of stiffs again as they tried to build his confidence up once more, finally won a 'world' title when his opponent injured his ankle, then lost his next 2 world title fights inside a round.

More myth than substance I'm afraid....
Can someone remind me...wasn't his loss to Duane Thomas the fight when he got a thumb in the eye? Nearly gouged it out and swelled up really badly immediately? Looked horrific if I remember rightly...

Just looking back, that fight was on my 15th birthday, ye Gods that's a long time ago!

Just a bit of friendly advice Goz - use words like 'cowardly' very rarely. Certainly doesn't match Mugabi.
Ian, if possible (or Anal enough!) you could scan my previous 1000+ posts for the word ‘coward’ and you wouldn’t find it (unless I was talking about myself of course), so I do use it very sparingly.

And in Mugabi’s case I stand by it. I’m not labelling him a coward as he proved his bravery in other situations, Hagler being a prime example, but I still say that in that fight with Duane Thomas (and I have this on video) he basically quit the fight and in my opinion suspiciously.

For people who haven’t seen the fight, it wasn’t a clear thumb, some make it sound like Thomas gouged his eye in a clinch and that didn’t happen, it was a punch. Admittedly Mugabi probably did catch the thumb part of the glove in the eye and that must be excruciatingly painful but he didn’t want to know at all after that. I don’t recall it swelling up that badly either AND he wasn’t dominating the fight leading up to the end, Mugabi was most definitely in a fight with Thomas.

Fair enough mate. You're one up on me if you have the fight because I don't. Last time I saw it was over 18 years ago. In the interim I have had several thousand units of alcohol! Memory is a funny thing. I seem to remember it being horrible - a punch swung with force, the stuck out thumb landing right in the eye. Long time ago but I certainly didn't think Mugabi had quit and it's unsurprising that he didn't want to know after that.

Go and have a look...again, it's purely on memory but I recall that they had a look at Mugabi's eye literally two minutes after the stoppage and it looked like a cricket ball.

Benny Lynch - little men do age quicker as a rule and looking at his record he'd had 100 fights by the time he was 24!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 29 Mar 2005, 10:50

I incidently saw the stoppage again only yesterday (part of a compilation video of upsets that I bought on Ebay). I have to say that it was a painful thumb, it was alot clearer than from Francis. Mugabi was well in control at the time of the stoppage.

They didn't show much after the stoppage so I couldn't tell you if it there was a swelling, but I do remember Mugabi holding his eye for a long time after the fight.