Ref for Toney v Ruiz

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 30 Mar 2005, 06:31

I believe the selection of referee will be crucial in this fight. Anyone know who it is?

Don King is surely going to have pushed for a referee that suits Ruiz, unless he's gotten his hooks into Toney....

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 30 Mar 2005, 07:11

I believe Toney has signed a co promotional deal with King.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 30 Mar 2005, 08:01

Most wise under the circumstances.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 30 Mar 2005, 08:30

Contrary to popular opinion I'll pick Ruiz to win. Toney has done nothing at heavyweight of note really and Ruiz is effective at what he does and has handled much bigger men.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 30 Mar 2005, 08:35

Bigger men yes, but not smarter or faster men. Toney will be by far the fastest man he has faced since Roy Jones, and at heavyweight, Toney's punchpower and workrate is superior to what Jones displayed.

I always said that at heavyweight Toney would have kicked Jones' arse, before the losses to Tarver and Johnson everyone laughed at the suggestion, but now it seems obvious.

If Ruiz is allowed to maul, grapple and wrestle, he may win another ugly boring decision, but if he is forced to break Toney will absolutely whup him. He's took quick, and despite the size disparity, he has the power and combination punchinig to hurt him badly.

Remember, Jones entered the ring at 200 lbs, and even though he threw very few shots, he hit hard enough and often enough to keep Ruiz negative. Toney hits harder, and is far more aggressive, and provided he can keep his hands free, he will murder Ruiz on the inside.

I could be badly wrong, but I think Toney is going to open a whole can of whoop-ass on Ruiz.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 30 Mar 2005, 08:52

That's a possibility, but Ruiz has gotten away with it for a long time and may do again. Just have a feeling he'll find a way to win. Toney has looked good at heavyweight, but against whom? Old Man Holyfield and that cokehead Booker! Who's to say he'll look as good at heavy against Ruiz - whatever you sentiments about him he is doubtless a lot better than that version of Holyfield and light years ahead of Booker.

Don't think for one minute I don't want Toney to win, but I have a feeling Ruiz will.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 30 Mar 2005, 08:58

What is clear to me is that Ruiz is a guy with no versatility. he has only one way to win, and if that doesn't work, he doesn't really have the balls to

I mean to get humiliated like he did against Jones is pretty terrible, he was content to lose rather than go shit or bust, against a guy he ouweighed by 45 lbs! Every other fight I can think of, he has been allowed to do what he wanted.

My guess is that King would rather co-promote Toney, than promote Ruiz, the only thing Ruiz bring to the party is the title, Toney with the title is far more bankable. Therefore, a referee will be appointed who penalises Ruiz for continued holding, which is as it should be, and Ruiz will do what he did against Jones which is go into a negative sulk. Ruiz did NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Jones Jr, because he was scared Jones would not just beat him, but knock him out and disgrace him.

The difference is, that unlike Jones Jr, Toney won't just be content to peck away and potshot, he will try and kick the fornicate out of Ruiz, and I think personally he has the firepower to give him a beating. I don't know if he can stop him, but I'm tempted to put a bet on a late stoppage.

bugs · Post by **bugs** » 30 Mar 2005, 09:10

Also Toney's guard allows him to fight in close just slide punches off his arms and gloves and then hit with hard short shots inside. Jones wanted space and could not fight there, even if Ruiz tries to close I pick Toney to beat him substancially.

Shirow · Post by **Shirow** » 30 Mar 2005, 09:49

Because of Toney's upper body movement, fast hands and skills i reckon it will not matter if Ruiz is pertmitted to try and grab hold as James will crack him with a combo on the way in and pivot out of the way before Ruiz has got his barnacle grip on.

His tactics are easier to make work the bigger, less speedy and mobile his opponent.

Ruiz is a tough bastard though and could well survive the distance unless he caves mentally the way he did against RJJ then he'll get bludgeoned in the las couple of rounds.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 30 Mar 2005, 11:07

Yes, Toney's problems have always come against movers and shakers, not big hitters. Counterpunchers and speedsters have been able to beat him.

For all his size, Ruiz is hardly a devastating puncher, nor does he throw many punches. He wins fights because he is able to smother his opponents work. Toney is a lot quicker than anyone Ruiz has ever beaten. In my opinion, at heavyweight, Toney has faster hands than Jones did, as he is a naturally bigger man.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 30 Mar 2005, 11:31

According to maxboxing, it's either Randy Neumann, Mike Ortega, Arthur Mercante Jr or Steve Smoger - with the edge going to Smoger

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 30 Mar 2005, 11:32

Yep, you beat me to posting that. I don't think Smoger will stand for too much shite.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 30 Mar 2005, 12:24

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, Toney's problems have always come against movers and shakers, not big hitters. Counterpunchers and speedsters have been able to beat him.

For all his size, Ruiz is hardly a devastating puncher, nor does he throw many punches. He wins fights because he is able to smother his opponents work. Toney is a lot quicker than anyone Ruiz has ever beaten. In my opinion, at heavyweight, Toney has faster hands than Jones did, as he is a naturally bigger man.

Good points but no way Toney is quicker than Jones was even at Heavy.

dve3333 · Post by **dve3333** » 30 Mar 2005, 12:39

I love watching Toney box. He fights so smoothly and he turns it into an artform. Even his last fight against Bitch-Tits with one hand. I can see him doing a real job on Ruiz especially on the inside with Toney ripping uppercuts at Ruiz who will wilt to a late stoppage.
Toney is too accurate for Ruiz who lets remember hasnt a good defense

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 30 Mar 2005, 13:04

I really am not sure how hard Toney hits at HW, he was never a huge puncher at 160-168 so how its going to carry upto HW I'm not quite sure. He didn't KO Booker either (although his hand was hurt). When he stopped Holyfield, it was due to Holy been exhausted (yes bodyshots played a part).

He looks a conditioned 225 though, which means he has the muscle, but Ruiz is the naturally bigger harder hitter.

I'm really not sure how this will go. It all depends if Toney can beat Ruiz to the punch when Ruiz lunges to jab then grab his opponent. If Ruiz can pull it off he wins, if Toney counters/beats Ruiz to the punch he wins. A tough call. It also depends on how well Toney takes Ruizs shots.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 30 Mar 2005, 14:29

MightyWarrior wrote:According to maxboxing, it's either Randy Neumann, Mike Ortega, Arthur Mercante Jr or Steve Smoger - with the edge going to Smoger

Shame Mercante Sr or Mills Lane are not still active.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 30 Mar 2005, 14:44

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Bigger men yes, but not smarter or faster men. Toney will be by far the fastest man he has faced since Roy Jones, and at heavyweight, Toney's punchpower and workrate is superior to what Jones displayed.

I always said that at heavyweight Toney would have kicked Jones' arse, before the losses to Tarver and Johnson everyone laughed at the suggestion, but now it seems obvious.

If Ruiz is allowed to maul, grapple and wrestle, he may win another ugly boring decision, but if he is forced to break Toney will absolutely whup him. He's took quick, and despite the size disparity, he has the power and combination punchinig to hurt him badly.

Remember, Jones entered the ring at 200 lbs, and even though he threw very few shots, he hit hard enough and often enough to keep Ruiz negative. Toney hits harder, and is far more aggressive, and provided he can keep his hands free, he will murder Ruiz on the inside.

I could be badly wrong, but I think Toney is going to open a whole can of whoop-ass on Ruiz.

TOTALLY disagree about Toney beating Jones at heavyweight. James Toney at heavy is being greatly overrated. Go back and watch the Holyfield fight. James Toney at heavy can't throw more than a few punches at a time. It was in the 4th I think at the start of the round he shook Evander with some fast combos, he then totally ran out of gas just when he had Evander right where he wanted him, he retreated to the ropes for the remainder of the round (bout 2 mins) and Evander worked his way back and made the round close.

Ruiz couldn't get close to Jones in their fight mostly because Jones was hurting Ruiz when he came foward. Ruiz didn't want to pay that price and stayed outside. He got gunshy like most of Roys opponents did. Roys just an awful style matchup for Toney at any weight. Theirs also zero proof that Toney hits harder than Jones, to body or head. Roys record easily backs this up.

I don't see Ruiz fearing Toney at all. Why would he? Look at the war Jirov gave Toney. Underrating Ruiz's punch I think, he's a big guy and in the 1st round even Holyfield seemed to light Toney up slightly. I see Ruiz outworking or maybe stopping Toney late. Toneys a lucky man that that Jameel McCline match never happened. The main issue with Toney for me at heavyweight is his punch output. That muscle he put on will also affect his output.

jab · Post by **jab** » 30 Mar 2005, 15:12

Yep,

Jameel would have beaten up Toney real bad. Toney will be koed by Ruiz in this fight. No power, no big speed, no sustained multiple punch combinations. At heavy weight Toney plainly sucks. He couldnt even ko or hurt blown up cruserweight Booker.
Holyfield pnly lost because he is 1000. In the firsr round (yeah, Holyfield only fights the first round well these days, just like Tyson) Holy had the better of Toney.

I like Toney but he should have stayed at cruiserweight. He is too old and small for the heavies.

Although I like Toneys style more than Ruiz, I pick Ruiz to beat up and ko Toney. Main reasons: advanced age, and slowed speed from that artificially bulked muscles Toney has. He is fighting too heavyy for hbis height and body type.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 30 Mar 2005, 16:37

I think Eddie Cotton would be a good ref for the fight, personally.