Riddick Bowe vs Lennox Lewis - prime vs prime?

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 25 Mar 2005, 14:08

mrbassie wrote:I would favour Lewis, bowe was always easy to hit and the olympic bout suggests that he couldn't take Lewis' punch (and yes, I have seen it)

This pretty much sums up the fight IMO.

Combined with the fact that Bowe was out on his feet against Herbie Hide & Evander Holyfield doesnt exactly make a strong case for him.

Lewis lasted twice as long as Bowe & beat many more quality figthers, and deserves far more respect from you guys than Bowe.

The unavoidable truth is Bowe didnt want to fight Lewis, & Lewis badly wanted to fight Bowe. Lewis is infinitely more mentally tough than Bowe, who preferred to fight much samller men & avoid challenges.

The difference in how the two men dealt with Andrew Golota pretty much sums up the gulf in class.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 25 Mar 2005, 14:20

meade95 wrote:Bowe had the better chin as a pro - And Bowe was willing to take a chance and force the action -

Lol. What do you base this on? When did Bowe ever take a lick from a puncher in his whole pro career?

Lets run down the list of known punchers who Bowe fought: Bert Cooper, Herbie Hide (hard punching cruiserweights anyway!)

Lets run down the list of punchers who Lewis fought: Razor Ruddock, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall (twice), Lionel Butler, Tommy Morrison, David Tua, Hasim Rahman (twice), Mike Tyson, Vitali Klitschko. (some people might even include Michael Grant, Shannon Briggs, and Phil Jackson but i wont bother)

Hmmmm.

Lennoxs was down TWICE his whole 14 yr career, after legit crushing blows.

Bowe was out on his feet in the 2nd Holyfield fight, down & nearly out in the 3rd, down twice against Golota, and, in his own words, "out on my feet" against Herbie Hide.

So what evidence is there that Bowe had the better chin?

As for you people talking about Lewis beating old fighters, Lewis himself was OLD. In his prime Holyfield was willing to fight Lewis because he had balls. Unfortunately he twice lost his title to men who had no balls & refused to fight Lewis (Bowe, then Moorer), hence Lewis being frozen out of the big time for so long.

Lexus · Post by **Lexus** » 30 Mar 2005, 12:21

overhand_right wrote:
meade95 wrote:Bowe had the better chin as a pro - And Bowe was willing to take a chance and force the action -
Lol. What do you base this on? When did Bowe ever take a lick from a puncher in his whole pro career?

Lets run down the list of known punchers who Bowe fought: Bert Cooper, Herbie Hide (hard punching cruiserweights anyway!)

Lets run down the list of punchers who Lewis fought: Razor Ruddock, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall (twice), Lionel Butler, Tommy Morrison, David Tua, Hasim Rahman (twice), Mike Tyson, Vitali Klitschko. (some people might even include Michael Grant, Shannon Briggs, and Phil Jackson but i wont bother)

Hmmmm.

Lennoxs was down TWICE his whole 14 yr career, after legit crushing blows.

Bowe was out on his feet in the 2nd Holyfield fight, down & nearly out in the 3rd, down twice against Golota, and, in his own words, "out on my feet" against Herbie Hide.

So what evidence is there that Bowe had the better chin?

As for you people talking about Lewis beating old fighters, Lewis himself was OLD. In his prime Holyfield was willing to fight Lewis because he had balls. Unfortunately he twice lost his title to men who had no balls & refused to fight Lewis (Bowe, then Moorer), hence Lewis being frozen out of the big time for so long.

Did Moorer duck Lewis? I thought they didn't fight because Lewis lost to McCall a few months after Moorer defeated Holyfield. Then Moorer got knocked out by Foreman. The public demand for Lewis vs Moorer must've been sky high.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 30 Mar 2005, 12:59

Out on his feet against Herbie Hide? Have you even seen the fight? He was stunned once, but "out on his feet" is quite the exaggeration.

Hmm, stunned once vs dropped 7 times... Wow Herbie must have kicked his ass, right?

How many times was Lewis stunned vs lesser opponents?

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 30 Mar 2005, 17:53

Why don't you tell us Tantum? Does a man with a bad chin at HEAVYWEIGHT (important) only go down twice in his career after fighting numerous big punchers? Just watch Lewis vs these big men. They are sitting ducks for his big right hand. Bowe would be dominated then destroyed. Lewis wouldnt miss him. Who cares if he got stunned? Erik Morales seems to get hurt in every one of his fight but no-one doubts his chin.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 30 Mar 2005, 18:20

snake33 wrote:There are some real Lewis haters. They say Tyson, Holyfield or Bowe
would have beaten him in the right circumstances but in reality:

Lewis beat Bowe (Tko'd his ass)
Lewis beat Holyfield (Most experts say twice)
Lewis beat Tyson (KO'd his ass)
in fact
Lewis fought everybody that would fight him, including Tua and Klitchko,
and beat 'em all.
He beat everybody he ever fought.

That's reality and reality can be such a bitch.

* Fine Lewis was annoyingly arrogent but it's more annoying to constantly
hear this convoluted crap about who would have beaten him.

A prime Tyson definitely would have KO'd Lewis and IMO: Muhammad Ali.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 30 Mar 2005, 22:09

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:Why don't you tell us Tantum? Does a man with a bad chin at HEAVYWEIGHT (important) only go down twice in his career after fighting numerous big punchers? Just watch Lewis vs these big men. They are sitting ducks for his big right hand. Bowe would be dominated then destroyed. Lewis wouldnt miss him. Who cares if he got stunned? Erik Morales seems to get hurt in every one of his fight but no-one doubts his chin.

I didn't say Lewis had a bad chin, but it wasn't better than Bowe's.

snake33 · Post by **snake33** » 31 Mar 2005, 04:33

Grimm wrote:
snake33 wrote:There are some real Lewis haters. They say Tyson, Holyfield or Bowe
would have beaten him in the right circumstances but in reality:

Lewis beat Bowe (Tko'd his ass)
Lewis beat Holyfield (Most experts say twice)
Lewis beat Tyson (KO'd his ass)
in fact
Lewis fought everybody that would fight him, including Tua and Klitchko,
and beat 'em all.
He beat everybody he ever fought.

That's reality and reality can be such a bitch.

* Fine Lewis was annoyingly arrogent but it's more annoying to constantly
hear this convoluted crap about who would have beaten him.
A prime Tyson definitely would have KO'd Lewis and IMO: Muhammad Ali.

Tyson, when he was quick and aggressive, could deliver a punch early
in a fight to knock out anybody including Lewis. But a prepared Lewis
is just what Tyson can't handle. A guy, unafraid, who keeps him at a
distance, ties him up and frustrates him. If Tyson caught Lewis on an
arrogant day, yeah maybe he could win but how likely is it that Lewis
would have ever taken Tyson lightly? None at all.
A prepared Lewis could only be beat by Tyson in any era via punchers
chance and if that miracle occurred Lewis would beat him in the rematch.
All the evidence says so. Nine times out of ten, Lewis beats Tyson.

Now, an early Foreman, beefed up to about 235.................

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 31 Mar 2005, 04:45

Tantum wrote:Out on his feet against Herbie Hide? Have you even seen the fight? He was stunned once, but "out on his feet" is quite the exaggeration.

Hmm, stunned once vs dropped 7 times... Wow Herbie must have kicked his ass, right?

How many times was Lewis stunned vs lesser opponents?

Once again Tantum shows his ignorance lol!!

The "out on my feet" quote was BOWES OWN WORDS in an interview a year or two ago!!!!!!!

Try again mate

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 31 Mar 2005, 04:48

JohnRuiz wrote:

Did Moorer duck Lewis? I thought they didn't fight because Lewis lost to McCall a few months after Moorer defeated Holyfield. Then Moorer got knocked out by Foreman. The public demand for Lewis vs Moorer must've been sky high.

YES! he did mate. In 94 Holy was willing to fight Lewis but first had to accomodate his #1 mandatory, who was Michael Moorer.

Once Moorer scored an upset he said "nobodys going to tell me who to fight" and flat out ducked Lewis, as Lewis wasn't the #1 contender (due to holding a WBC belt)

Moorer instead sat out til it was time to fight his mandatory, Joe Hipp(!!!) But instead the WBA allowed him to fight George Foreman, (all formoney), who did to him what Lewis would have done inside 2 or 3 rds.

MOORER DUCKED LEWIS!!!!!!!!!

Lexus · Post by **Lexus** » 31 Mar 2005, 04:49

snake33 wrote:
Grimm wrote:
snake33 wrote:There are some real Lewis haters. They say Tyson, Holyfield or Bowe
would have beaten him in the right circumstances but in reality:

Lewis beat Bowe (Tko'd his ass)
Lewis beat Holyfield (Most experts say twice)
Lewis beat Tyson (KO'd his ass)
in fact
Lewis fought everybody that would fight him, including Tua and Klitchko,
and beat 'em all.
He beat everybody he ever fought.

That's reality and reality can be such a bitch.

* Fine Lewis was annoyingly arrogent but it's more annoying to constantly
hear this convoluted crap about who would have beaten him.
A prime Tyson definitely would have KO'd Lewis and IMO: Muhammad Ali.
Tyson, when he was quick and aggressive, could deliver a punch early
in a fight to knock out anybody including Lewis. But a prepared Lewis
is just what Tyson can't handle. A guy, unafraid, who keeps him at a
distance, ties him up and frustrates him. If Tyson caught Lewis on an
arrogant day, yeah maybe he could win but how likely is it that Lewis
would have ever taken Tyson lightly? None at all.
A prepared Lewis could only be beat by Tyson in any era via punchers
chance and if that miracle occurred Lewis would beat him in the rematch.
All the evidence says so. Nine times out of ten, Lewis beats Tyson.

Now, an early Foreman, beefed up to about 235.................

I respect your opinion but there are a few things you have to keep in mind when matching Lewis against other good fighters:
* Lewis always had trouble with good jabbers (Bruno, Briggs, Mercer) and Tyson had a great jab in his prime.
* Lewis prefered working at a VERY slow pace. Anyone who forced him to work at a pace he didn't like made him feel uncomfortable. Tyson worked at a very fast pace.
* Lewis' stamina was good but not that great. Look at the end of the fights with Mercer, Holyfield 2, Mavrovic, Briggs. Tyson had good stamina.
* Lewis' chin, although underrated by many, is not that great. Prime Tyson landed very accurate combinations and there is no way Lewis could take a combination from Tyson. One punch perhaps but not a combination. Tyson has a great chin - it took eight rounds for Lewis to KO a "dead" Tyson. Imagine how easy it would be to hit a prime Tyson, let alone KO him.

Those are Lewis' weaknesses which have been pointed out before, most notably from poster dempseyfire. All this leads me to believe Tyson KO's Lewis.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 31 Mar 2005, 05:06

Johnruiz- Lewis was 37 yrs old when he fought Tyson. There were 2 old men in the ring, not 1.

Talking about people Lewis had trouble with lol. see the trouble Tyson had with Ruddock. See what a young prime Lewis did to Ruddock.....?

Lexus · Post by **Lexus** » 31 Mar 2005, 05:19

overhand_right wrote:Johnruiz- Lewis was 37 yrs old when he fought Tyson. There were 2 old men in the ring, not 1.

Talking about people Lewis had trouble with lol. see the trouble Tyson had with Ruddock. See what a young prime Lewis did to Ruddock.....?

See the trouble Lewis had with Bruno. See what Tyson did to Burno twice?

Picking out one fight like this won't cut it. Reply to the things I listed instead.

Lexus · Post by **Lexus** » 31 Mar 2005, 05:23

I'm not saying it would be a cake walk for Tyson but I just feel that based on the things I pointed out, Lewis would lose. It's just an opinion, I can be convinced otherwise.

snake33 · Post by **snake33** » 31 Mar 2005, 07:27

JohnRuiz wrote:
snake33 wrote:
Grimm wrote: A prime Tyson definitely would have KO'd Lewis and IMO: Muhammad Ali.
Tyson, when he was quick and aggressive, could deliver a punch early
in a fight to knock out anybody including Lewis. But a prepared Lewis
is just what Tyson can't handle. A guy, unafraid, who keeps him at a
distance, ties him up and frustrates him. If Tyson caught Lewis on an
arrogant day, yeah maybe he could win but how likely is it that Lewis
would have ever taken Tyson lightly? None at all.
A prepared Lewis could only be beat by Tyson in any era via punchers
chance and if that miracle occurred Lewis would beat him in the rematch.
All the evidence says so. Nine times out of ten, Lewis beats Tyson.

Now, an early Foreman, beefed up to about 235.................
I respect your opinion but there are a few things you have to keep in mind when matching Lewis against other good fighters:
* Lewis always had trouble with good jabbers (Bruno, Briggs, Mercer) and Tyson had a great jab in his prime.
* Lewis prefered working at a VERY slow pace. Anyone who forced him to work at a pace he didn't like made him feel uncomfortable. Tyson worked at a very fast pace.
* Lewis' stamina was good but not that great. Look at the end of the fights with Mercer, Holyfield 2, Mavrovic, Briggs. Tyson had good stamina.
* Lewis' chin, although underrated by many, is not that great. Prime Tyson landed very accurate combinations and there is no way Lewis could take a combination from Tyson. One punch perhaps but not a combination. Tyson has a great chin - it took eight rounds for Lewis to KO a "dead" Tyson. Imagine how easy it would be to hit a prime Tyson, let alone KO him.

Those are Lewis' weaknesses which have been pointed out before, most notably from poster dempseyfire. All this leads me to believe Tyson KO's Lewis.

Again, you need to look at the facts:
Lewis had trouble with soem people but he beat them. He won.
He beat everybody he fought. Came back when things didn't go
right for him.
Tyson has not come back to beat anyone who beat him. Tyson has had
trouble with everyone who wasn't afraid of him, even in his prime.
Frankly, I think Tyson was a bluff waiting for Buster Douglas to happen.
Since then, every time he had a fearless opponent he lost.
Tyson was damn entertaining for ten title fights but it was (and will
continue to be, I'm sure) blown way, way, way, way out of proportion.
There is no real tangible evidence for Tyson beating Lewis with anything
other than a lottery punch. They fought. All the people that are saying
NOW that Tyson would have beaten Lewis in his prime said Tyson was
going to win that fight. He didn't. If they fought again, he wouldn't.
Tyson is the classic bully, tough as hell till you start kicking his ass.
The fight we saw is what would happen again and again, then or now.

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 31 Mar 2005, 07:45

Of course prime Tyson would have Ko'd prime Lewis.

Its laughable to suggest anything other than this.

Lewis was one of the best of a very poor and over the hill bunch.

And whilst he was one of the best of this poor bunch, he got knocked out by two glorified journeymen.

Lewis an all time great. - Please get real.

Lexus · Post by **Lexus** » 31 Mar 2005, 07:52

snake33 wrote:
JohnRuiz wrote:
snake33 wrote: Tyson, when he was quick and aggressive, could deliver a punch early
in a fight to knock out anybody including Lewis. But a prepared Lewis
is just what Tyson can't handle. A guy, unafraid, who keeps him at a
distance, ties him up and frustrates him. If Tyson caught Lewis on an
arrogant day, yeah maybe he could win but how likely is it that Lewis
would have ever taken Tyson lightly? None at all.
A prepared Lewis could only be beat by Tyson in any era via punchers
chance and if that miracle occurred Lewis would beat him in the rematch.
All the evidence says so. Nine times out of ten, Lewis beats Tyson.

Now, an early Foreman, beefed up to about 235.................
I respect your opinion but there are a few things you have to keep in mind when matching Lewis against other good fighters:
* Lewis always had trouble with good jabbers (Bruno, Briggs, Mercer) and Tyson had a great jab in his prime.
* Lewis prefered working at a VERY slow pace. Anyone who forced him to work at a pace he didn't like made him feel uncomfortable. Tyson worked at a very fast pace.
* Lewis' stamina was good but not that great. Look at the end of the fights with Mercer, Holyfield 2, Mavrovic, Briggs. Tyson had good stamina.
* Lewis' chin, although underrated by many, is not that great. Prime Tyson landed very accurate combinations and there is no way Lewis could take a combination from Tyson. One punch perhaps but not a combination. Tyson has a great chin - it took eight rounds for Lewis to KO a "dead" Tyson. Imagine how easy it would be to hit a prime Tyson, let alone KO him.

Those are Lewis' weaknesses which have been pointed out before, most notably from poster dempseyfire. All this leads me to believe Tyson KO's Lewis.
Again, you need to look at the facts:
Lewis had trouble with soem people but he beat them. He won.
He beat everybody he fought. Came back when things didn't go
right for him.
Tyson has not come back to beat anyone who beat him. Tyson has had
trouble with everyone who wasn't afraid of him, even in his prime.
Frankly, I think Tyson was a bluff waiting for Buster Douglas to happen.
Since then, every time he had a fearless opponent he lost.
Tyson was damn entertaining for ten title fights but it was (and will
continue to be, I'm sure) blown way, way, way, way out of proportion.
There is no real tangible evidence for Tyson beating Lewis with anything
other than a lottery punch. They fought. All the people that are saying
NOW that Tyson would have beaten Lewis in his prime said Tyson was
going to win that fight. He didn't. If they fought again, he wouldn't.
Tyson is the classic bully, tough as hell till you start kicking his ass.
The fight we saw is what would happen again and again, then or now.

True, but when did Lewis ever face anyone as dangerous as prime Tyson? You're right that he managed to come back from adversity but a lot of those fights exposed flaws in Lewis that a truly good heavyweight would've taken advantage of. As I said, it's just an opinion and I'm not saying Tyson definitely would've beaten Tyson - I just THINK he would've.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 31 Mar 2005, 08:07

JohnRuiz wrote:
overhand_right wrote:Johnruiz- Lewis was 37 yrs old when he fought Tyson. There were 2 old men in the ring, not 1.

Talking about people Lewis had trouble with lol. see the trouble Tyson had with Ruddock. See what a young prime Lewis did to Ruddock.....?
See the trouble Lewis had with Bruno. See what Tyson did to Burno twice?

Picking out one fight like this won't cut it. Reply to the things I listed instead.

Lol. yes it will cut it. see Holyfield knocking out Tyson. See Holy then humiliating him in a rematch. Then see Lewis beating Holyfield TWICE!!

Lexus · Post by **Lexus** » 31 Mar 2005, 08:50

overhand_right wrote:
JohnRuiz wrote:
overhand_right wrote:Johnruiz- Lewis was 37 yrs old when he fought Tyson. There were 2 old men in the ring, not 1.

Talking about people Lewis had trouble with lol. see the trouble Tyson had with Ruddock. See what a young prime Lewis did to Ruddock.....?
See the trouble Lewis had with Bruno. See what Tyson did to Burno twice?

Picking out one fight like this won't cut it. Reply to the things I listed instead.
Lol. yes it will cut it. see Holyfield knocking out Tyson. See Holy then humiliating him in a rematch. Then see Lewis beating Holyfield TWICE!!

I don't see your point. Lewis beat Holyfield twice when Holy had quite a few ring wars behind him, combined with the fact that he was 37. The thing that's most important is that Lewis beat the Holyfield who, 9 months later, got a gift decision against Ruiz

. In the next fight, Ruiz floors him which is something Lewis never managed to do even when he pinned Holy up against the ropes (in the 1 st fight) and was hitting him at will.

J · Post by J » 31 Mar 2005, 08:55

JohnRuiz wrote:
overhand_right wrote:Johnruiz- Lewis was 37 yrs old when he fought Tyson. There were 2 old men in the ring, not 1.

Talking about people Lewis had trouble with lol. see the trouble Tyson had with Ruddock. See what a young prime Lewis did to Ruddock.....?
See the trouble Lewis had with Bruno. See what Tyson did to Burno twice?

Picking out one fight like this won't cut it. Reply to the things I listed instead.

and getting back the the thread and using your logic exactly how much trouble did bowe have with a certain pole, and what happened when he fought lewis hmmm?
U cant use that logic mate, it just doesnt work like that. If it did then pac would have kicked the shit of morales last weekend on the basis of his win over barerra. Come on you know this, its a feeble and desperate argument. not being mean just its the way it is!

Styles and what shape they are in and how they are on the night etc etc etc all come into play.

As for a prime Bowe beating lewis, its plain to me those backing Bowe are just hating on Lewis, thats fine, but any credible boxing fan will use logic to see that Lewis was a better tactician, technician, more disciplined and had more power.
To suggest with those factors in his favour that he wouldnt have beaten a man who also didnt wish to fight Lennox (and if you think you are gonna lose thats half the battle already), then Im afraid you are letting personal bias interfere with fact.

J · Post by J » 31 Mar 2005, 08:57

Graham Brett wrote:Of course prime Tyson would have Ko'd prime Lewis.

Its laughable to suggest anything other than this.

Lewis was one of the best of a very poor and over the hill bunch.

And whilst he was one of the best of this poor bunch, he got knocked out by two glorified journeymen.

Lewis an all time great. - Please get real.

my word.

well people who have forgotten more about boxing than you or i ever will, certianly do rank him up there. Lets leave it at that.

Lexus · Post by **Lexus** » 31 Mar 2005, 08:59

J wrote:
JohnRuiz wrote:
overhand_right wrote:Johnruiz- Lewis was 37 yrs old when he fought Tyson. There were 2 old men in the ring, not 1.

Talking about people Lewis had trouble with lol. see the trouble Tyson had with Ruddock. See what a young prime Lewis did to Ruddock.....?
See the trouble Lewis had with Bruno. See what Tyson did to Burno twice?

Picking out one fight like this won't cut it. Reply to the things I listed instead.
and getting back the the thread andf using your logic exacly how much trouble did bowehave with a certain pole, and what happened when he fought lewis hmmm? U cant use that logic mate, it just doenst work like that. If it did then pac would have kicked the shot of morales last weekend on the basis of his win over barerra. Come on uyou know this, its a feeble and desperate argument.

I used that to prove that overhand's logic was flawed. I listed the things that make me believe Lewis would lose yet no one responds to them.

If you want to use Golota as an example then I might as well bring up McCall and Rahman - two fighters Lewis underestimated. Bowe did the same with Golota and paid for it. Besides, everyone says Bowe was finished at that time because of the trilogy with Holyfield. Now please respond to the things I listed

J · Post by J » 31 Mar 2005, 09:06

john no offence mate i can just about stomach a discussion of prime Bowe vs Lewis, I cant go into Tyson.

Yeah everyone went mad saying tyson was more shot thant Curt Cobain AFTER THE EVENT, be interesting to dig some threads up from the time, bet more than half were still tipping Tyson to take lewis and his "china chin".

He fought tyson and Lewis is older and battered him.
Theres no need to discuss it any further.

Graham Brett · Post by **Graham Brett** » 31 Mar 2005, 09:33

J wrote:john no offence mate i can just about stomach a discussion of prime Bowe vs Lewis, I cant go into Tyson.

Yeah everyone went mad saying tyson was more shot thant Curt Cobain AFTER THE EVENT, be interesting to dig some threads up from the time, bet more than half were still tipping Tyson to take lewis and his "china chin".

He fought tyson and Lewis is older and battered him.
Theres no need to discuss it any further.

Chronologically older. There is a big difference.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 31 Mar 2005, 09:42

Graham Brett wrote:
J wrote:john no offence mate i can just about stomach a discussion of prime Bowe vs Lewis, I cant go into Tyson.

Yeah everyone went mad saying tyson was more shot thant Curt Cobain AFTER THE EVENT, be interesting to dig some threads up from the time, bet more than half were still tipping Tyson to take lewis and his "china chin".

He fought tyson and Lewis is older and battered him.
Theres no need to discuss it any further.
Chronologically older. There is a big difference.

Please mate, DO ELABORATE!!!!!!!!! This i have to hear. "chronologically older" lol!