who was the better attacker duran, tzsyu or JCC?

[Seamus]

If Duran boxes, he's the one with the better skills. Quicker hands, better defense and at LW he was still pretty good on his feet. Punching power they're pretty close, but no one attacks the body like Chavez. Like I said, Duran wins this if he throws in a bit of movement and boxes, but I'll stand by my original claim, that if Julio can sucker him into a toe to toe war to prove who's tougher, I'll take Chavez. He'd hurt Duran with his body attack, but being the tough sob Cholo is, it wouldn't be real obvious. Most likely you'd see it in a decrease in Duran's punch output, and by him holding on alot. Either way, this is a pretty close fight. If Duran boxes I think he wins by 3-4 pts, if he trades toe to toe, I think Chavez pulls it out by about 2.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Chavez quit in the Randall rematch, but I don't think he would quit against Duran. He would just get his ass kicked in an exciting, yet one sided fight. Pretty much a replay of Duran/Palomino.

Given the fight is at close-quarters, would you give Chavez any quarter for his outstanding body assault, or is it all just Duran with blazing speed, superior defense, & heavier hands? Following that point, how does Duran's power stack up to Chavez's chin?

Chavez would get his licks in, the Palomino fight was lopsided on the cards but it was very exciting in the ring. I think Duran would consistently back Chavez up and that would take some of the starch out of his body attack. Roberto was the stronger man and my guess is Chavez would back off and try to box more ,he is a bit underrated in that regard, like he did against Laporte.

As for his chin, Julio could take it with the best of them. A flash knockdown from a right hand he didn't see coming is kind of likely imo. But I think it's a distant fight way more often than not.

I'm the total opposite from Seamus here, Duran needs to take the play from Chavez and outman him. Boxing Julio would just allow him to get up a head of steam. I'm confident that Duran would never look the other way from a macho slugfest and I don't see how Chavez could ever outfight him in that scenario.

[Ambling Alp]

Well, let's not go nuts (par for the course with Duran though it may be), Chavez was one tough son of a b!tch --- tougher, IMO, than Duran. No one's quitting here. Duran, however, has the handspeed. He has the raw power. He has the defense. Those are three very steep mountains to climb for Chavez in an out-&-out skirmish, & I don't think he can make up the ground.

Seamus makes an interesting point, though --- Duran could take a lickin' to the ribs, even in winning, because Chavez was almost super-naturally gifted in that department.

No one is quitting here? It would have been a possibility. Both of these tough guys have been known to quit.

In this kind of fight, at the peak of their powers? I don't see it. How shop-worn was Chavez when he first quit, anyway? Ali quit too, you know.

No, even against Holmes, Ali did not quit. His trainer stopped the fight against Holmes. Of course Chavez was well past his time, but he was not completely shot when he fought De La Hoya. It certainly was not a similar situation to Ali who was not even throwing punches almost the entire fight.
Chavez could have sucked it up for a few more rounds. We have all seen guys getting beat up in similar situations that don't quit.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Don't tell me you actually believe that Dundee line? You think Ali didn't quit? Dundee went out & spared him actually stating the fact. Ali quit. To paint the scenario there was some grand protest, or Ali genuinely wanted to go on at any rate, is just Hauser-material (I'm as disturbed as you are to borrow a line from the school of thought of Granberry, but...). Anyway, it's no criticism of Ali --- none --- that a completely shot version of him quit against all-time, at his peak Holmes, even a Holmes holding back a little. To say he didn't quit, though, that's just protecting his image. That's something Dundee or Pacheco would say. It's nonsense.

I'm confident Ali wouldn't quit any fight, against anybody, between 1965-1975. I'm even more confident Chavez doesn't anywhere close to his peak, either --- & that includes a confrontation against the bigger, better (but not gutsier) Duran.

[Ambling Alp]

It's nonsense to say he quit when there is no evidence that he did. Dundee stopped the fight because he knew it was the right thing to do. I have never heard anyone ever suggest that Ali quit, even on this forum with all the ridiculaus things that have been said about him. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean that you need to be ripping him at every possible turn. I can't stand Joe Frazier. I don't accuse him of quitting against Ali in their 3rd fight.

Why did you even start talking about Ali? This is about Chavez and Duran. Why is it the people that can't stand Ali have to bring him up constantly when we aren't even talking about him?

As for Chavez, as I said before he was past his best when he fought De La hoya. That still doesn't mean that he couldn't have gone on. He at least still had a punchers chance. No, it was not as bad as when Duran quit. Still, we have also seen guys go on many times when they were getting beat that badly or worse.

Duran and Chavez both fought a lot of fights and hardly ever quit. I'm just saying that it isn't completely out of the question if they had ever fought each other.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's nonsense to say he quit when there is no evidence that he did. Dundee stopped the fight because he knew it was the right thing to do. I have never heard anyone ever suggest that Ali quit, even on this forum with all the ridiculaus things that have been said about him. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean that you need to be ripping him at every possible turn. I can't stand Joe Frazier. I don't accuse him of quitting against Ali in their 3rd fight.

Why did you even start talking about Ali? This is about Chavez and Duran. Why is it the people that can't stand Ali have to bring him up constantly when we aren't even talking about him?

As for Chavez, as I said before he was past his best when he fought De La hoya. That still doesn't mean that he couldn't have gone on. He at least still had a punchers chance. No, it was not as bad as when Duran quit. Still, we have also seen guys go on many times when they were getting beat that badly or worse.

Duran and Chavez both fought a lot of fights and hardly ever quit. I'm just saying that it isn't completely out of the question if they had ever fought each other.

Let's make it about Duran & Chavez then. What are your odds for it at LW? How convincing is your nominated winner? How much does he struggle to the victory?

[Ambling Alp]

A lot of different scenarios are possible. The most likely one is that its a pretty good fight with a little bit of boxing mixed in with some toe to toe action and a lot of infighting. Doubtful that either could hurt the other enough to take him out until the late rounds if at all. Possiblity of a late round TKO through accumilation of punches. However, its more likely that would go the distance.

Duran wins a decison something like 9 rounds to 6. There would probably be several rounds that are difficult to score. Chavez would certainly have a chance, but Duran is more likely to win.

[raylawpc]

It's nonsense to say he quit when there is no evidence that he did.

According to press accounts, he told Dundee "Thank you" when Dundee stopped it.

[hitman09]

It's nonsense to say he quit when there is no evidence that he did.

According to press accounts, he told Dundee "Thank you" when Dundee stopped it.

He could feasibly be glad it was stopped despite not being willing to actually quit.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's nonsense to say he quit when there is no evidence that he did.

According to press accounts, he told Dundee "Thank you" when Dundee stopped it.

He could feasibly be glad it was stopped despite not being willing to actually quit.

That's splitting hairs a little too fine for my taste.

[raylawpc]

It's nonsense to say he quit when there is no evidence that he did.

According to press accounts, he told Dundee "Thank you" when Dundee stopped it.

He could feasibly be glad it was stopped despite not being willing to actually quit.

Could be. But Alp said there was "no evidence" he quit.

Compare it to Joe Frazier who, when Futch stopped the "Thrilla in Manila," argued with him, and then refused to speak with Futch for several years afterwards.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Frazier ever go on record forgiving Futch, or endorsing his actions?

[raylawpc]

Frazier ever go on record forgiving Futch, or endorsing his actions?

As far as I know, for the former yes; for the latter no.

[Ambling Alp]

Well, Frazier has to have some excuse to why he lost; he always did. He did not quit, but his trainer certainly did the right thing. He was defenseless and could not see the punches coming. Frazier didn't put up much of an argument at the time.

And no that is not evidence that Ali quit. Crazy as it sounds, to quit you actually have to quit. Doesn't matter what the fighter says after the fight. That is not splitting hairs.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I have to agree with Alp here, I've never had an issue with a beaten fighter staying on the stool. More of them should do it.

Quitting that deserves criticism is like Duran/Leonard 2, Chavez/Randall 2 & Cintron's recent leap of faith.

I fail to see how a complete shell of Ali should take any heat after remaining on his feet during ten hideous to watch rounds of punishment. Muhammad more than proved his balls over his career.

[raylawpc]

Well, Frazier has to have some excuse to why he lost; he always did. He did not quit, but his trainer certainly did the right thing. He was defenseless and could not see the punches coming. Frazier didn't put up much of an argument at the time.

And no that is not evidence that Ali quit. Crazy as it sounds, to quit you actually have to quit. Doesn't matter what the fighter says after the fight. That is not splitting hairs.

How much more of an argument would you have expected Frazier to put up, given the shape he was in? As I recall, didn't the winner actually collapse to the floor from exhaustion? I think Joe put up a pretty strenuous argument, given the shape he was in. You can see him saying "no, no" and shaking his head in the corner. What would you have had him do to make it more strenuous? But, regardless of whether Joe did or didn't "put up much of an argument at the time," it was a far cry more strenuous argument than by the guy who said "Thank you."

P.S. Saad. I do not fault Ali for quitting, or Dundee quitting for him, whichever you prefer. I think he showed courage staying with it as long as he did. Indeed, I do not personally believe that he quit. My disagreement with Alp is his statement that there is "no evidence" that he quit, when he told Dundee "thank you" for stopping the fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Got you, quit is a nasty word in Boxing. It is used far too often on message boards for my taste. I see your side of it, just hard to give flack to any aging legend like that for me. Even like Camacho/Leonard, i despised Ray as a fighter and even more as a man. But I hated seeing him like that.

[raylawpc]

Got you, quit is a nasty word in Boxing. It is used far too often on message boards for my taste. I see your side of it, just hard to give flack to any aging legend like that for me. Even like Camacho/Leonard, i despised Ray as a fighter and even more as a man. But I hated seeing him like that.

I was not an Ali fan. I favored him over his opponent on only one occasion. But I still believe Ali was a great and, yes, a courageous fighter. My disagreement is when one says its "nonsense" to suggest a fighter might have quit when, in fact, that fighter is sitting on his stool at the end of the fight, telling his trainer "thank you" for stopping it. Even if I don't personally believe Ali quit, in the classic sense of the word, I do think there is circumstantial evidence in that situation from which a reasonable person could infer that he did quit.

[giacomino]

So 18 percent of people voted went with Tzsyu. More than for Chavez. Can anyone who voted for Tzsyu explain why he was a "better attacker" than Duran and Chavez?

[Goodnight, Irene]

So 18 percent of people voted went with Tzsyu. More than for Chavez. Can anyone who voted for Tzsyu explain why he was a "better attacker" than Duran and Chavez?

No, they cannot. This actually happens with every Poll. A bunch of people will take a ridiculous option, but we won't hear a peep about it in-thread. Something like the FightBeat system, where the creator can choose to make the results of voting public, would shut 'em up, I suspect. I can't explain it.

[Ambling Alp]

Got you, quit is a nasty word in Boxing. It is used far too often on message boards for my taste. I see your side of it, just hard to give flack to any aging legend like that for me. Even like Camacho/Leonard, i despised Ray as a fighter and even more as a man. But I hated seeing him like that.

I was not an Ali fan. I favored him over his opponent on only one occasion. But I still believe Ali was a great and, yes, a courageous fighter. My disagreement is when one says its "nonsense" to suggest a fighter might have quit when, in fact, that fighter is sitting on his stool at the end of the fight, telling his trainer "thank you" for stopping it. Even if I don't personally believe Ali quit, in the classic sense of the word, I do think there is circumstantial evidence in that situation from which a reasonable person could infer that he did quit.

This does not make sense. Even if Ali said "thank you", that is not "circumstantial evidence" that he quit. Maybe he was grateful that Dundee stopped it. That is not the same thing as quitting.



Sure, he knew he had no chance and probably did not want to continue. That by no means that he would not have.

A reasonable person is not always reasonable. It is not reasonable to say Ali quit when he did simply did not.
The bottom line is that Ali did not quit. That is a fact. Therefore it is indeed nonsense to suggest that he did.

As usual, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[Ambling Alp]

So 18 percent of people voted went with Tzsyu. More than for Chavez. Can anyone who voted for Tzsyu explain why he was a "better attacker" than Duran and Chavez?

No, they cannot. This actually happens with every Poll. A bunch of people will take a ridiculous option, but we won't hear a peep about it in-thread. Something like the FightBeat system, where the creator can choose to make the results of voting public, would shut 'em up, I suspect. I can't explain it.

That is true. I think some people just like a certain guy (or don't like someone) and vote that way. Perhaps others may vote early without really thinking about it. Unfortunately, at times this happens on the Boxrec Hall of Fame voting.

I personally voted for Duran, though Chavez was great attacking as well. I think Chavez usually landed more cleaner punches but the sheer volume of Duran's punches was enough to rate him higher. Tzsyu is a distant 3rd out of the people in this poll.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Not a-one of them can come forward though, Alp? Not even one? It happens with every Poll. Weak.

[raylawpc]

Got you, quit is a nasty word in Boxing. It is used far too often on message boards for my taste. I see your side of it, just hard to give flack to any aging legend like that for me. Even like Camacho/Leonard, i despised Ray as a fighter and even more as a man. But I hated seeing him like that.

I was not an Ali fan. I favored him over his opponent on only one occasion. But I still believe Ali was a great and, yes, a courageous fighter. My disagreement is when one says its "nonsense" to suggest a fighter might have quit when, in fact, that fighter is sitting on his stool at the end of the fight, telling his trainer "thank you" for stopping it. Even if I don't personally believe Ali quit, in the classic sense of the word, I do think there is circumstantial evidence in that situation from which a reasonable person could infer that he did quit.

This does not make sense. Even if Ali said "thank you", that is not "circumstantial evidence" that he quit. Maybe he was grateful that Dundee stopped it. That is not the same thing as quitting.



Sure, he knew he had no chance and probably did not want to continue. That by no means that he would not have.

A reasonable person is not always reasonable. It is not reasonable to say Ali quit when he did simply did not.
The bottom line is that Ali did not quit. That is a fact. Therefore it is indeed nonsense to suggest that he did.

As usual, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Makes sense to me that, if a boxer is sitting on his stool when his manager tells the referee he's stopping the fight, and the fighter tells his manager "thank you," a reasonable person could believe that fighter quit. Take the name "Muhammad Ali" out of the equation, and I think you'll agree with me. You refuse to accept that a reasonable person could believe Ali would quit because he's, well, Ali. But I suggest that if it was any other fighter, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

BTW, I'm still wondering how much more strenuous argument you would have had Joe Frazier put up in the Thrilla in Manila to signal that Frazier disagreed with his manager's decision to stop the contest.

[hitman09]

Not a-one of them can come forward though, Alp? Not even one? It happens with every Poll. Weak.

tzyuforever did.