Who was better Clay or Louis?

gambler49 · Post by **gambler49** » 07 Jun 2010, 18:28

It's not an easy call...... However I go for Clay..
If they met in da ring im sure Clay woulda won! He had da style to lic Joe!
But....... That is not da question....

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Jun 2010, 19:39

gambler49 wrote:It's not an easy call...... However I go for Clay..
If they met in da ring im sure Clay woulda won! He had da style to lic Joe!
But....... That is not da question....

Could you define the context you have in mind for better? I mean, myself, if I compile a list for the greatest on accomplishments, it starts out this way...

1. Ali
2. Louis

...but if I compile one purely based upon who-would-beat-who, I get this...

1. Louis
2. Ali

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 07 Jun 2010, 19:41

gambler49 · Post by **gambler49** » 07 Jun 2010, 19:59

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
gambler49 wrote:It's not an easy call...... However I go for Clay..
If they met in da ring im sure Clay woulda won! He had da style to lic Joe!
But....... That is not da question....
Could you define the context you have in mind for better? I mean, myself, if I compile a list for the greatest on accomplishments, it starts out this way...

1. Ali
2. Louis

...but if I compile one purely based upon who-would-beat-who, I get this...

1. Louis
2. Ali

Wasnt it clear enuff?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Jun 2010, 20:02

It's a little confusing, actually. To me, "who was better," implies head-to-head. You then went ahead & stated you're sure Ali would win a fight, however, "that is not the question." You're asking, then, who achieved more?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 07 Jun 2010, 20:58

Is this a trick question? Clay only exists until the Liston Fight. So almost all of us would agree that "Clay" is not as good as Louis.

However many of us would agree that "Ali" whom "Clay" became after the Liston fight was a better fighter than Joe.

So I'm thinkin' your tryin' to be a bit clever with your syntax.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 07 Jun 2010, 21:19

Ali & louis are both better than Clay.

gambler49 · Post by **gambler49** » 07 Jun 2010, 22:39

BoxBuzz wrote:Is this a trick question? Clay only exists until the Liston Fight. So almost all of us would agree that "Clay" is not as good as Louis.

However many of us would agree that "Ali" whom "Clay" became after the Liston fight was a better fighter than Joe.

So I'm thinkin' your tryin' to be a bit clever with your syntax.

To me "Ali" is Clay... I remember reading about this guy wen he entered da Limpix in 1960.. He will always b Clay to me. Im like Bonavena in the way I never took da name change. GI got it.. Then he got it wrong wen he sed Louis woulda beat Clay..

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 07 Jun 2010, 22:41

i think it is very disrespectful to still call him clay even if you are a fan

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 07 Jun 2010, 22:56

Yep, I"m thinkin this is just a bit of Trollin.

Saad your right. Both Ali and Louis were better than Clay.

gambler49 · Post by **gambler49** » 07 Jun 2010, 23:08

p4p1 wrote:i think it is very disrespectful to still call him clay even if you are a fan

Im not a fan of Clay. actualy im a fan of Louis. But.... Clay is da greatest HW of all time! And I dont think this can be argued! And I in no way dis da greatest HW who ever lived. I juss don't dig this Islam crap. BTW if u think Louis or any 1 coulda beat Clay then I urge u 2 watch footage of Clay inda 60s.
Noooooo 1 coulda beat this guy!!! He was gifted ina way like no other.... Ima boxing fan and I keep it real!!
This man was a freak of nature!!! He dun everything wrong!!! But he was so dam fast and gifted he could get away wiv it... I rly cant understand how any1 could see otherwise. It's silly cos every1 should say Clay was better. Also wen u check this guys record it's amazing! By far da best record of any HW. So in my book that makes him da best boxer ever! Better then Louis, Smith. Greb, Tunney, Pep, Armstrong, or Leonard..
Basically he was da best boxer that ever lived... However he wasn't da best p4p.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 08 Jun 2010, 04:46

Would you stop with the text message approach? It's nauseating to read.

Btw, Ali over Louis, "not even debatable?" That is amusing.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Jun 2010, 11:21

Yo dawg, Tommy Morrison wuz da best boxa eva! He would dee-stroy that bum CLAy and Louis! And I dnt call Clay Ali b/c once he became Ali he rolled wit Osama . . . hey yo I juz ceep it reel!!!!!!

Jesus · Post by **Jesus** » 08 Jun 2010, 11:53

i respect joe louis but come on guys ali would have destroyed him and made him look silly! boxing was different in louis's era, the guys were slow, clumsy, flat footed, with poor stance....ali would have boxed circles around louis!! (watch a documentary called muhammed ali aka cassius clay its brilliant and ali and cus d'amato talk about how they think ali would have fared against other heavyweights)

gambler49 · Post by **gambler49** » 08 Jun 2010, 11:53

dempseyfire wrote:Yo dawg, Tommy Morrison wuz da best boxa eva! He would dee-stroy that bum CLAy and Louis! And I dnt call Clay Ali b/c once he became Ali he rolled wit Osama . . . hey yo I juz ceep it reel!!!!!!

Panzerfaust · Post by **Panzerfaust** » 08 Jun 2010, 12:22

Jesus wrote:i respect joe louis but come on guys ali would have destroyed him and made him look silly! boxing was different in louis's era, the guys were slow, clumsy, flat footed, with poor stance....ali would have boxed circles around louis!!

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 08 Jun 2010, 12:28

gambler49 wrote:
p4p1 wrote:i think it is very disrespectful to still call him clay even if you are a fan
Im not a fan of Clay. actualy im a fan of Louis. But.... Clay is da greatest HW of all time! And I dont think this can be argued! And I in no way dis da greatest HW who ever lived. I juss don't dig this Islam crap. BTW if u think Louis or any 1 coulda beat Clay then I urge u 2 watch footage of Clay inda 60s.
Noooooo 1 coulda beat this guy!!! He was gifted ina way like no other.... Ima boxing fan and I keep it real!!
This man was a freak of nature!!! He dun everything wrong!!! But he was so dam fast and gifted he could get away wiv it... I rly cant understand how any1 could see otherwise. It's silly cos every1 should say Clay was better. Also wen u check this guys record it's amazing! By far da best record of any HW. So in my book that makes him da best boxer ever! Better then Louis, Smith. Greb, Tunney, Pep, Armstrong, or Leonard..
Basically he was da best boxer that ever lived... However he wasn't da best p4p.

This article explains why Louis could have and, if you accept all the premises in the article, would have defeated Ali - even the 1960s version.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/alilouis.html

Although I don't always agree with Monte Cox, I think this article is excellent, both in its writing and its analysis.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 08 Jun 2010, 13:07

Jesus wrote:i respect joe louis but come on guys ali would have destroyed him and made him look silly! boxing was different in louis's era, the guys were slow, clumsy, flat footed, with poor stance....ali would have boxed circles around louis!! (watch a documentary called muhammed ali aka cassius clay its brilliant and ali and cus d'amato talk about how they think ali would have fared against other heavyweights)

Slow, clumsy and flat footed isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Jersey joe Walcott & Billy Conn.

Joe Louis could beat anybody, don't kid yourself.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jun 2010, 20:42

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Jesus wrote:i respect joe louis but come on guys ali would have destroyed him and made him look silly! boxing was different in louis's era, the guys were slow, clumsy, flat footed, with poor stance....ali would have boxed circles around louis!! (watch a documentary called muhammed ali aka cassius clay its brilliant and ali and cus d'amato talk about how they think ali would have fared against other heavyweights)

Slow, clumsy and flat footed isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Jersey joe Walcott & Billy Conn.

Joe Louis could beat anybody, don't kid yourself.

I agree, and so could Ali. This was, is, and forever will be a "pick em" situation. I would favor Ali in a majority of matchups. But when two greater fighters enter the ring to fight but once, the "majority" of fights is irrelevant. It is only about who won that night.

If you separate the "Fight of the Century" from it's two cousins, and think of it as a stand alone fight. You will understand my meaning here.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 08 Jun 2010, 20:53

Jesus wrote:i respect joe louis but come on guys ali would have destroyed him and made him look silly! boxing was different in louis's era, the guys were slow, clumsy, flat footed, with poor stance....ali would have boxed circles around louis!! (watch a documentary called muhammed ali aka cassius clay its brilliant and ali and cus d'amato talk about how they think ali would have fared against other heavyweights)

At a minimum, eight out of fifteen disagree with you, apparently. Even most of those picking Ali aren't so foolhardy to write Louis off.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jun 2010, 20:54

By the way, Ali was so fast in his early years that I believe he could have avoided enough Jabs to effectively negate this "Louis Wins" rationale, but this portion of his career did not last all that long. But it did last long enough for him to believe that that is all he needed. But Jimmy Young did prove that such was not the case. But by that time Ali was sold that he could elude incomings via that style forever.

I think prime vs prime Ali wins. But Put them both OFF of their primes by a few years, and Louis wins over the course of more years.

But that is of course speaking statistically and as we all know a single fight does not behave in a statistical fashion.

E.G. Braddock Baer, Tyson Douglas, Foreman Moorer, just to name some obvious examples.

gambler49 · Post by **gambler49** » 09 Jun 2010, 10:55

BoxBuzz wrote:By the way, Ali was so fast in his early years that I believe he could have avoided enough Jabs to effectively negate this "Louis Wins" rationale, but this portion of his career did not last all that long. But it did last long enough for him to believe that that is all he needed. But Jimmy Young did prove that such was not the case. But by that time Ali was sold that he could elude incomings via that style forever.

I think prime vs prime Ali wins. But Put them both OFF of their primes by a few years, and Louis wins over the course of more years.

But that is of course speaking statistically and as we all know a single fight does not behave in a statistical fashion.

E.G. Braddock Baer, Tyson Douglas, Foreman Moorer, just to name some obvious examples.

Wivout a doubt the 70s Clay loses to Louis. I think if u took Ali who fight Foreman and put him in wiv Louis he woulda got badly hurt and prolly KOd. But I cannot see Louis beating the 60s version, wen he was up for it. The Chuvalo fight wernt a good night for Clay, maybe he didnt train so hard. But if he was taking on Louis he woulda trained his bollox off and produced his very best.

Woller · Post by **Woller** » 11 Jun 2010, 13:56

I simply don´t know.

Their first fight would go to a close 15 round decision.

Both were better in re-matches - I would love to see the re-match.

I have Joe Louis a very slight favorite.

Woller

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 11 Jun 2010, 18:54

How about this; Take them each at the same age and think who would win. When they were both 22, 25, 32 etc.

In another words:
1964 Clay (Ali) vs 1936 Louis
1967 Ali vs 1939 Louis
1974 Ali vs 1946 Louis

gambler49 · Post by **gambler49** » 11 Jun 2010, 19:05

Ambling Alp wrote:How about this; Take them each at the same age and think who would win. When they were both 22, 25, 32 etc.

In another words:
1964 Clay (Ali) vs 1936 Louis
1967 Ali vs 1939 Louis
1974 Ali vs 1946 Louis

1964 Clay (Ali) vs 1936 Louis - Clay wins 8/10
1967 Ali vs 1939 Louis - Clay wins 8/10
1974 Ali vs 1946 Louis[/quote] - Ali wins 2/10