Riddick Bowe vs. Jack Dempsey...

[Goodnight, Irene]

Big Daddy, or The Manassa Mauler?

I have a feeling this might divide people 8)

[jezzamundo]

The first thing that comes to mind is that Bowe is by far the bigger man - about 4 inches taller and perhaps 50lb heavier when in shape. Of course, such a size advantage did not help Jess Willard...

Different styles, but both had great power, relatively poor defense (particularly Bowe) and a very good chin. I'm going to say that the Bowe that beat Holyfield beats any version of Dempsey, but any most other nights, Dempsey knocks Bowe out or takes a close decision.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd love to be able to surprise you Irene, but I can't. Bowe by destruction.

[dempseyfire]

Dempsey by destruction. A big guy with awful defense is the type of opponent Dempsey destroyed literally within minutes. Yes Bowe had some offensive skills but IMO Fulton was actually as skilled/quick as Riddick with a great jab and that didn't save him at all. If Herbie friggin' Hide could seriously buckle Riddick's legs Dempsey does it and finishes the job pronto.

[gambler49]

Bad match up for Bowe... Dempsey Kills him around the 7th round.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Herbie Hide got bounced off of the canvas like a basketball. Dempsey handled some big unskilled guys in his day. No doubt about that. Bowe would drive him into the canvas like a nail. Jack would have a speed advantage and nothing more. It isn't like Dempsey is going to move around and outbox him. He would have success early, but the eventual beatdown is inevitable.

I'd give Jack a 1 out of 10 shot at an early stoppage.

[thehero55]

Yeah, I don't always favor the recent guy in these situations but this is a bad match up for Dempsey. Dempsey would have no chance on the outside, and Bowe was probably the best bigman I ever saw when in shape on the inside, which was where Dempsey did his damage.Not to change the subject but I think guy like Jack Johnson might have a shot against Bowe if he fights his fight, but Im not sure Dempsey could take Bowe on the inside where Bowe is close in terms of skills, and has a big size/strength edge

[dempseyfire]

If one will falsely deride Willard and Fulton as 'big unskilled guys' than so be it. If Willard is unskilled than so is Vitali. And Fulton was praised by all of the writers at the time for being very skilled and quick. Bowe is not nearly fast enough or busy enough to keep Dempsey on the outside all night, with Dempsey's footspeed and head-movement being far superior to that of anyone Bowe ever faced. And once on the inside, Bowe's ability to throw an uppercut would mean little as the combinations Dempsey unleashes would have Bowe in major trouble. Look at the flush shots on the inside Holyfield lands throughout their series. With Dempsey who was a far bigger puncher than Holyfield, that spells lights out for Bowe.

And yes Hide was bounced around by Bowe, but he also had Bowe badly hurt at one point in their fight. And Hide was not any bigger than Dempsey, with far less ability ,skill, and durability.


This is no-contest.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Vitali is unskilled.

Bowe has beaten a better and more skilled fighter in Holyfield. Dempsey has a punchers chance against anyone, but it's a slim one here. Any advantage Dempsey had in power, Holyfield had more in everything else.

I agree Bowe wouldn't be able to keep jack outside all night. But he could muscle him around and break his face inside with uppercuts. Dempsey never met anyone in the vicinty of Bowe. Same can't be said of Riddick.

Agreed that it is no contest, Bowe sends Dempsey to the cruiserweight division with an emphatic thrashing.

[BoxBuzz]

I've always got nostalgia for the older fighters. But this is a fight I'd advise Jack not to take. Unless it was post the two Golata fights.

[Ambling Alp]

Goodnight Irene was right that this would divide people. I think people are making invaild assumptions for both fighters.

I don't think you can just say that since Bowe was hurt by Hide that he would have no chance against Dempsey. You can do that with everyone. Look at Dempsey himself. He was hurt badly by Flynn, Smith, Firpo, Tunney etc.

On the other hand, you can't just say that since Bowe was bigger that Dempsey would have no chance. There are countless examples of the smaller guy winning. Dempsey himself routinely beat bigger fighters.

Bowe never fought anyone like Dempsey. The closest in style and skill would be Holyfield. Bowe did pretty well with him but didn't dominate him.
Demspey never fought anyone like Bowe. Willard and Fulton are nowhere near the same class of fighter as Bowe. By far the best fighter Dempsey fought was Tunney who had little stylewise in common with Bowe.

So this would be a difficult fight to predict. Like most big fighters who are aggressive, Bowe could be hit. However, he had a very good chin and a lot of heart. Perhaps Dempsey would hurt him. However, it would be very difficult for him to stop Bowe.
Demspey would take a lot of punishment. And yes Bowe's uppercuts are going to matter because Dempsey is not going to consistently nail Bowe and not get hit himself. Bowe was also extremely quick for a big man. Demspey would have not the huge edge that one would expect in that regard. Holyfield found that out.
A lot would depend on how discilpined Bowe was. At times he could get a little wild and go a knockout that just was not there.

I think this would be a wild fight while it lasted. A lot of changes in momentum. something like Foreman-Lyle. It would be not be a quick ko for either guy because neither guy is going to go away that easily. However, it hard to imagine it going the distance.
I would say this could go either way, with one guy winning by a mid-round ko.

[dempseyfire]

Goodnight Irene was right that this would divide people. I think people are making invaild assumptions for both fighters.

I don't think you can just say that since Bowe was hurt by Hide that he would have no chance against Dempsey. You can do that with everyone. Look at Dempsey himself. He was hurt badly by Flynn, Smith, Firpo, Tunney etc.

On the other hand, you can't just say that since Bowe was bigger that Dempsey would have no chance. There are countless examples of the smaller guy winning. Dempsey himself routinely beat bigger fighters.

Bowe never fought anyone like Dempsey. The closest in style and skill would be Holyfield. Bowe did pretty well with him but didn't dominate him.
Demspey never fought anyone like Bowe. Willard and Fulton are nowhere near the same class of fighter as Bowe. By far the best fighter Dempsey fought was Tunney who had little stylewise in common with Bowe.

So this would be a difficult fight to predict. Like most big fighters who are aggressive, Bowe could be hit. However, he had a very good chin and a lot of heart. Perhaps Dempsey would hurt him. However, it would be very difficult for him to stop Bowe.
Demspey would take a lot of punishment. And yes Bowe's uppercuts are going to matter because Dempsey is not going to consistently nail Bowe and not get hit himself. Bowe was also extremely quick for a big man. Demspey would have not the huge edge that one would expect in that regard. Holyfield found that out.
A lot would depend on how discilpined Bowe was. At times he could get a little wild and go a knockout that just was not there.

.

It's comments like the one above that are so frustrating. Based on what? Bowe feasted on a bunch of gatekeepers and padded records like Seldon, Gonzales, Hide and Ferguson. The one class fighter he beat was Holyfield, who he split fights with and then in their third match was headed to a KO defeat if Evander hadn't come into the fight with Hepatitis.

Evander fought a bad fight plan in the first fight, taking the fight to Bowe on the inside thinking he'd mentally quit like he did in their previous sparring sessions, but Bowe that night brought his A-game. When Evander used his legs and moved in and out he had great success. That was Dempsey's strength, using his legs to move in and out and unleash slashing shots under a bob n'weave.

The other elite guys Bowe faces he either gets a gift decision (Tubbs) or gets saved by the utter stupidity of his opponent (Golota). Bowe is one of the most over-rated fighters in HW history, who blocked punches with his face, couldn't throw a straight right hand, and was often lazy in training and in execution.

I'd take Fulton and Willard over Bowe anytime. Fulton's chin might ensure a Bowe victory in a 3 fight series but Fulton faced and beat much tougher comp than Bowe ever did (with Evander being Bowe's lone exception, and give me Langford over Holyfield)

[BoxBuzz]

Dempsey you have a point and I interpret it something like this.

Dempsey has a good chance against Bowe on many many many nights in his career.

Bowe has a good chance against Dempsey on only a very few nights in his career.



I think this should count for something. And I feel better leaning a bit more in the old school camp again.

However.....if you pluck each man on their best night, and have them face off....I go back to leaning to Bowe.

Funny thing about Bowe, I think at his peak he was top 10 material. But that peak may have been one of the shortest on record. And he has only his personal discipline decisions to blame.

[allworld80]

But that peak may have been one of the shortest on record. And he has only his personal discipline decisions to blame.

This is partly why I have no problem choosing Dempsey in this contest. The three fights with Holyfield were truely something special, but his career and resume were so unremarkable after that third fight, aside from the two beatings/DQ's that he took from Golota.

His lack of dedication and mental issues he had are the main reasons he's never mentioned high on anybody's ATG heavyweight lists.

Dempsey TKO8

[dempseyfire]

Actually Buzz, I was trying to say that Bowe on his supposed golden night in the first Evander fight, was facing a fighter in Evander who by fighting a faulty fight plan made him look much better than he was. Evander thought by laying on the inside with Bowe that he could wear Bowe out in the late rounds, but Bowe kept up a good work-rate and was in good shape. (In the other W vs Evander Bowe looked like crap and was saved by Evander's poor health condition)

Bowe is facing a very different fight in a prime Dempsey, a guy who is constantly darting in and out, giving angles, using head movement. As Bowe was a big guy with poor defense and who had pretty slow feet, he's a tailor-made opponent for Dempsey.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Fair points about Bowe being lazy. Some of that can be attributed to the amount of money he earned. Jack was lazy himself after he became the biggest star in sports.

Any fight like this should be both guys at their best. If that's the case, Jack gets beat up more often than not.

[Goodnight, Irene]

The betting is two-to-one on Dempsey, looking at the votes.

[Seamus]

Some big money just came in on Bowe.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The smart money tends to come in late. That's why I got in early when Bowe was a 3 to 1 dog.

[dempseyfire]

Or a more likely prospect, a bunch of bored current sceners casted votes . . .

[Goodnight, Irene]

Either way, the important thing is once again, I am right. 12-12 in voting. Division, as I anticipated.

Btw, Dempsey gets him, three times outta five 8)

[John Galt]

Dempsey is the size of a 168 lber of today. The guys who fight at 168 are usually about Dempsey's height and weigh in at 168 the day before and enter the ring at 180-86 at fight time. Take a look at Lucien Bute for an example of a Dempsey size guy fighting now. Bute doesn't have an ounce of fat on him at 185, the 24-48 hour prior to the fight weigh in has changed everything about weight classes in boxing.

Bowe is probably one of the few heavyweight champions who couldn't be a cruiserweight today and be back at his natural fighting weight by fight time. Guys like Ali, Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, Liston, etc. could have dried out, weighed in at 200, and been back at 215-20 by fight time.

The science of weight cutting makes it even harder to compare fighters of different eras.

[Diamond WEAPON]

The weight thing is precisely why I favor Bowe to finish what Firpo flashed his hopes of doing. Dempsey would probably crack and wobble Bowe a little eary, but Bowe would make Dempsey eat one-too-many uppercuts on the inside and put Dempsey to sleep after a few rounds.

Although on the flipside of the weight thing (and I'm sure a couple like dempseyfire will agree with this idea) I could very well see several of today's top SMWs and LHWs holding their own with most anyone in the HW division. Just imagine the war that the ripped Abraham would engage in with the tubby Povetkin, or the difficulties Dirrell and Ward would cause for guys like Peter and Tua with their speed and agility, so long as they don't get lullabied.

[dempseyfire]

Dempsey is the size of a 168 lber of today. The guys who fight at 168 are usually about Dempsey's height and weigh in at 168 the day before and enter the ring at 180-86 at fight time. Take a look at Lucien Bute for an example of a Dempsey size guy fighting now. Bute doesn't have an ounce of fat on him at 185, the 24-48 hour prior to the fight weigh in has changed everything about weight classes in boxing.

Bowe is probably one of the few heavyweight champions who couldn't be a cruiserweight today and be back at his natural fighting weight by fight time. Guys like Ali, Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, Liston, etc. could have dried out, weighed in at 200, and been back at 215-20 by fight time.

The science of weight cutting makes it even harder to compare fighters of different eras.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read . . .

Bute is not nearly as big as Dempsey . . He's a light HW who drains down extra to 168 and then consumes as much water as possible to get to the 180s. The majority of that added on weight is sheer water. Just look at their measurements (for starters you have the 70' reach of Bute compared to Dempsey's 77')
Dempsey was a guy who walked around over 200 lbs and then went through hell and high water to cut down to 190. Many old school trainers even dehydrated even their HW fighters 24 hrs before the fight (including the weigh-in) to get their fighters more 'mean'. Dempsey would've been dead if he'd ever weighed 168 after his teenage years. Even as a malnourished 21 year old rail jumper he still weighed 181 vs JL Johnson.
It all ends up being a mute point b/c Dempsey knocked out men as big and bigger than Bowe.

[Darling]

The one class fighter he beat was Holyfield, who he split fights with and then in their third match was headed to a KO defeat if Evander hadn't come into the fight with Hepatitis.