Female Boxers dies.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 05 Apr 2005, 13:42

I know it shouldn't but it somehow sounds even worse when a woman dies in the ring,

From the BBC

A female boxer has died in America from head injuries sustained in the ring.

College teacher Becky Zerlentes died on Sunday and is believed to be the first woman to die in a sanctioned bout.

The preliminary cause of death was "blunt force trauma to the head", but results from an autopsy were not immediately available.

Zerlentes, 34, was struck by opponent Heather Schmitz and, despite wearing protective headgear, fell unconscious during the amateur bout in Denver.

Physicians at the Golden Gloves competition jumped into the ring, but Zerlentes never regained consciousness and died several hours later.

Zerlentes had won a regional Golden Gloves title in 2002 before taking a break from boxing.

R.I.P.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 05 Apr 2005, 14:04

an amateur boxer... that is very unusual......
probably did most of the damage in sparring

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 05 Apr 2005, 14:10

To die like that there must have been an underlying problem. Like when a fit athlete suddenly drops dead...they discover a weak blood vessel in the brain or something. e.g. Marc Vivian Foe.

Most unusual, but sadly...it happens.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Apr 2005, 14:51

Yes, that's what I thought.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Apr 2005, 16:37

Why did she have a lay off?... perhaps she suffered some form of injury earlier that was the reason for the break from boxing. Very sad. Might sound sexist to some but I still don't feel right seeing two women hammering away at eachother.... just seems ugly to me.

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 06 Apr 2005, 09:05

silkov wrote:Why did she have a lay off?... perhaps she suffered some form of injury earlier that was the reason for the break from boxing. Very sad. Might sound sexist to some but I still don't feel right seeing two women hammering away at eachother.... just seems ugly to me.

Very sad news :( :(
It makes me think of an interview with Kostya Tszyu saying that he dosn't like womens boxing because women are supposed to be beutiful and elegant and boxing is about being tough and macho.

lirva33 · Post by **lirva33** » 06 Apr 2005, 09:06

Women just aren't made for boxing IMO.

But don't tell Ann Wolfe I said that

:(

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 09:30

silkov wrote:Why did she have a lay off?... perhaps she suffered some form of injury earlier that was the reason for the break from boxing. Very sad. Might sound sexist to some but I still don't feel right seeing two women hammering away at eachother.... just seems ugly to me.

What's the difference, they are fighting one another, not against men. People used to say the same thing

Women fight in many armies in the world, some of the most highly decorated soliders in the Israelli Army are women. Women have a higher pain threshold than men, due to naturally higher levels of endorphins, the pain of childbirth would probably be enough to induce a heart attack in most men.

If people find it unpalatable to watch women boxing, fair enough, don't watch it, but there is absolutely no reason on god's earth that women are physiologically unable to fight. Women are involved in all kinds of contact martial arts, and the argument about breast tissue is bull, as most of the breast tissue dissapears due to the intense physical training.

Women who exercise to the level that female fighters do, are going to have significant drops in the levels of oestrogen in their bodies, as oestrogen is stored in fatty deposits in the body, in effect, their bodies are going to become more masculine, and therefore better equipped to fight.

The major problem I have with women's boxing is the lack of depth, poor administration, falisfied records, and lack of amateur grounding.

All this means that you have a few world class fighters, Wolfe, Ali, Anani, Rijker, Couch etc, beating the shite out of hopelessly overmatched opposition.

lirva33 · Post by **lirva33** » 06 Apr 2005, 09:47

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
silkov wrote:Why did she have a lay off?... perhaps she suffered some form of injury earlier that was the reason for the break from boxing. Very sad. Might sound sexist to some but I still don't feel right seeing two women hammering away at eachother.... just seems ugly to me.
What's the difference, they are fighting one another, not against men. People used to say the same thing

Women fight in many armies in the world, some of the most highly decorated soliders in the Israelli Army are women. Women have a higher pain threshold than men, due to naturally higher levels of endorphins, the pain of childbirth would probably be enough to induce a heart attack in most men.

If people find it unpalatable to watch women boxing, fair enough, don't watch it, but there is absolutely no reason on god's earth that women are physiologically unable to fight. Women are involved in all kinds of contact martial arts, and the argument about breast tissue is bull, as most of the breast tissue dissapears due to the intense physical training.

Women who exercise to the level that female fighters do, are going to have significant drops in the levels of oestrogen in their bodies, as oestrogen is stored in fatty deposits in the body, in effect, their bodies are going to become more masculine, and therefore better equipped to fight.

The major problem I have with women's boxing is the lack of depth, poor administration, falisfied records, and lack of amateur grounding.

All this means that you have a few world class fighters, Wolfe, Ali, Anani, Rijker, Couch etc, beating the shite out of hopelessly overmatched opposition.

Indeed. Women fighters are usually poor and they take too many punches.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 09:59

Having said that, Rijker is world class, but then she is from a martial arts background and so has a lot of experience in full contact fighting before she took up boxing.

The proliferation of the amateur sport will gradually change all of that.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 06 Apr 2005, 10:02

Sad news, R.I.P. I agree that women shouldn't box. Not because of this death obviously, but because there is no public interest, no infrastructure, little talent, little money, too many mismatches, and the underlying reason, the implicit instinct in many men that women are just not made for it.

Call me sexist, but there is a natural marginalisation of the subordinate amongst men, and women boxers would be part of the subordinate. It's called 'hegemonic masculinity'.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 10:12

Yes, but they are not fighting men, they are fighting other women.

The male and female hormones Testosterone and Oestrogen are present in BOTH sexes, and vary to a huge extent from individual to individual. The women with more testosterone are naturally more aggressive, stronger and more able to build muscle. This is one of the reasons that a lot of African-Carribean women are more muscular, athletic and have broader shoulders and narrower hips than their European blooded counterparts, because the levels of testosterone IN GENERAL not in every case, are higher in people of African origins in BOTH SEXES.

So therefore, you will find that the less aggressive and less strong females will be marginalised from the sport, as they are unlikely to want to take it up in the first place. People who take up fighting are going to have high levels of natural aggression by their very nature they are generally going to those best equipped to fight.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 06 Apr 2005, 10:19

The testosterone argument is kind of essentialistic, but you have a point. Social factors would also influence whether a girl wants to fight. there is a dominant influence from society that girls fighting is wrong. Such an influence is there for a reason and links to the legitimacy of patriarchy. You can look at the other side of the coin w/ male ballet dancers, the difference being that the women viewers of male ballet dancers would not be saying they shouldn't dance.

Umm, sorry, I've kinda got too wrapped up in my sociology module there...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 10:31

The testosterone argument is valid, because it is effectively a self-regulating mechanism outside of sociological constructs. Testosterone quite simply put is aggression juice. Life by it's very nature is aggressive, as in order to survive we cannot just sit on our arses. We have to consume and acquire in order to prosper and procreate, hence we have ended up after thousands of years with a materialistic society, as the consumption (in one form or another) and nest building instincts are ingrained.

Thus, those with more testosterone are more prone to violence, but also tend to have more sexual partners, marry younger, have more children and tend (provided they are from the right social background and are well educated) to be wealthier, and in many respects healthier.

I know this is a very simplistic argument, which doesn't take into account the facile pointless subject you're studying

but I think people's assumptions that women are not 'naturally' aggressive are very much unfounded.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 06 Apr 2005, 10:50

facile and pointless... ooh you...

yeah, sociology is a joke subject, but I'm actually an english student, I'm doing joint honours. This module is the most fun education related thing yet though, so it's all worthwhile.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Apr 2005, 11:28

The fact is I just don't enjoy seeing two women hitting eachother and to be frank don't think it's right. All this equality stuff is basically pc bull really... at the end of the day men are men and women are women... (most of the time!) women are just not meant to fight eachother I think and I also feel that womens bodies are far more vulnerble to mens.
Aside from all that women fighting holds very little for me as a spectacule and indeed the fights I have seen have underlined all my reservations about Female boxing... I find the sight of overmatched femals being bloodied and koed quite sickening.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 06 Apr 2005, 11:32

agreed silkov, pc is the biggest bullshit in this world, that bbc introduction clip with the black guy in the wheelchair... why did they bother? I want to hunt down the woman who's idea that was and skull f**k her ad detached retina.

GRRRRRRRR

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 11:56

Riddick Blowe wrote:facile and pointless... ooh you...

yeah, sociology is a joke subject, but I'm actually an english student, I'm doing joint honours. This module is the most fun education related thing yet though, so it's all worthwhile.

I did an English Degree with sociology, we did a modular degree at Essex, (where the inimitable Mr McNeilly also studied English), and so I had to do subsiduary courses.

I did one course called 'Sexuality in societies' which was pretty eye opening. Just be glad you're not born in Papua New Guiniea, because what some of the tribes there do makes Gary Glitter look normal. I won't disgust everyone here with details, but if you're interested look at this.

http://people.stthomasu.ca/~belyea/2003/Sambian.htm

Thank the lord you're not a Sambian.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 12:01

silkov wrote:The fact is I just don't enjoy seeing two women hitting eachother and to be frank don't think it's right. All this equality stuff is basically pc bull really... at the end of the day men are men and women are women... (most of the time!) women are just not meant to fight eachother I think and I also feel that womens bodies are far more vulnerble to mens.
Aside from all that women fighting holds very little for me as a spectacule and indeed the fights I have seen have underlined all my reservations about Female boxing... I find the sight of overmatched femals being bloodied and koed quite sickening.

Based on what? Women are at no more risk (the boxing board of control lost their case with Jane Couch due to lack of evidence) from fighting one another than Men. Their bodies may be less strong, but then the punches they are taking are less forceful.

It's no different to 14 year olds fighting one another, they are no more likely to cause damage

If anything, men are more likely to suffer a fatality due to the forces involved.

It's nothing to do with PC, the fact is there is little or no evidence to support your claims. All of the objections come down to the fact that men generally don't like to see women hurt. Me, I'm all for it, equal opportunity, and equal risk, we're all human, men just happen to be physically stronger.

And why on earth does the sight of a guy in a wheelchair piss you off.

I think you have some issues silkov.

You may 'feel' women's bodies are more vulnerable, but they are made of bone, blood, muscle and sinew, just the same as men's.

Overmatched women is another issue, who wants to see overmatched fighters of either sex, not me.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 06 Apr 2005, 12:20

No no no- I said the wheelchair thing, and it was a dig at POLITICAL CORRECTNESS- the fact they feel they have to show a black guy in a wheelchair to 'cover all bases' and try and represent every minority- it is totally forced IMO and is patronising and degrading.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 13:05

yeah, but the guy in the wheelchair is also a paralympic medallist, so it't not like they just got any old disabled person.

i'm not a fan of PC gone mad, and there is something about that guy's gap toothed face which fucks me off, but i don't really object to him being on an advert, the idea of the advert is formation dancing, so they got the paralympic basketball team to contribute. I mean, they could have got the 'red barrows' instead I suppose.... remember them?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Apr 2005, 17:24

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
silkov wrote:The fact is I just don't enjoy seeing two women hitting eachother and to be frank don't think it's right. All this equality stuff is basically pc bull really... at the end of the day men are men and women are women... (most of the time!) women are just not meant to fight eachother I think and I also feel that womens bodies are far more vulnerble to mens.
Aside from all that women fighting holds very little for me as a spectacule and indeed the fights I have seen have underlined all my reservations about Female boxing... I find the sight of overmatched femals being bloodied and koed quite sickening.
Based on what? Women are at no more risk (the boxing board of control lost their case with Jane Couch due to lack of evidence) from fighting one another than Men. Their bodies may be less strong, but then the punches they are taking are less forceful.

It's no different to 14 year olds fighting one another, they are no more likely to cause damage

If anything, men are more likely to suffer a fatality due to the forces involved.

It's nothing to do with PC, the fact is there is little or no evidence to support your claims. All of the objections come down to the fact that men generally don't like to see women hurt. Me, I'm all for it, equal opportunity, and equal risk, we're all human, men just happen to be physically stronger.

And why on earth does the sight of a guy in a wheelchair piss you off.

I think you have some issues silkov.

You may 'feel' women's bodies are more vulnerable, but they are made of bone, blood, muscle and sinew, just the same as men's.

Overmatched women is another issue, who wants to see overmatched fighters of either sex, not me.

When did I say that the sight of a guy in a wheelchair pisses me off???... I'd like to see my thread saying that as I didn't say it.
I happen to feel that women boxing is wrong! and that is my right and if me saying that offends you so much James mate then perhaps you have some issues of your own that you should look at before casting deluded accusations at others.
Some people might say that anyone who enjoys seeing women bashing seven bells out of eachother may have a few kinks of their own!.
If you can't see why women are physically less well equipped to box then perhaps you should read up a bit on Human Biology. A lot of doctors have said the same thing as I have. Just because Jane Couch won her court case doesn't mean all the arguments against women boxing are wrong.
I have respect for anyone who steps into the ring man or woman but at the same time I don't agree with women boxing and a lot of other boxing fans feel the same way. The argument that women should be allowed to box because of equal opportunities is crap, because women are built fundermentally different to men unless you haven't noticed.
Any way thats my opinion and if it makes me someone who dislikes people in wheelchairs then I'd like to know why mate?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Apr 2005, 17:33

jamesmcdonnell wrote:yeah, but the guy in the wheelchair is also a paralympic medallist, so it't not like they just got any old disabled person.

i'm not a fan of PC gone mad, and there is something about that guy's gap toothed face which fucks me off, but i don't really object to him being on an advert, the idea of the advert is formation dancing, so they got the paralympic basketball team to contribute. I mean, they could have got the 'red barrows' instead I suppose.... remember them?

Ah so you like people in wheelchairs as long as they are pretty right?... thats very enlightened. I'm sure he'll be relieved that you don't object to him being on the advert!. Perhaps James you should go to spec-savers as for someone with a degree (OOOOOhhhhh!) YOU DON'T SEEM TO READ VERY WELL MATE!.
I'm sure there are others here with degrees and we don't go about boasting about them mate and we do not try and back up our arguments with personal comments which are totally off the mark!.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 18:50

What are you on about you mentalist!

I mentioned I had a degree because someone mentioned they had to do sociology with their degree, the same as I did. It's not my problem if you have a chip on your shoulder. Last time i checked about 40% of under 25's went to university these days, so it's hardly some elitist badge of excellence.

Seeing as your such an expert, why don't you enlighten us on the physiological differences which make it more dangerous for women to box?

Seeing as the BBBofC's medical team couldn't come up with any evidence to deny giving Jane Couch a licence i reckon you might struggle.

I am obviously aware of the differences between men and women, but there's very little evidence to suggest that women are any more at risk from engaging in boxing than men are. The major difference is the presence of ovaries, but being punched in the muff is no more dangerous than taking one to the danglers, and both are covered by a protector. Women are more slight in build, but they also punch less hard for their weight. Their pelvis is different, but I fail to see what impact that has on anything.

If you find watching women box unpleasant, fair enough, that's your prerogative, but don't try and imply that there is significant medical evidence to suggest that it's more dangerous, unless you can back it up with anything more than 'there are lots of doctors who think the same as me.'

I am taking issue with the fact that you said 'I feel women's bodies are more vulnerable' to what? If they were fighting against men, then yes, they would be at a significant disadvantage, but they aren't, and so that would surely negate any differences in physiognomy.

Boxing by it's nature is dangerous, and unless someone is able to prove women are signiciantly more at risk, why shouldn't they fight, nobody is forcing you to watch it. If you want it banned because you don't like it, (I'm not sure if you do) then it's the same argument used by the people who would ban boxing altogether, "I don't like it, therefore it should be banned.'

Oh and it was Riddick who said the wheelchair thing, but I don't see him flying off in a huff about it. Christ mate, breathe.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 07 Apr 2005, 06:21

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What are you on about you mentalist!

I mentioned I had a degree because someone mentioned they had to do sociology with their degree, the same as I did. It's not my problem if you have a chip on your shoulder. Last time i checked about 40% of under 25's went to university these days, so it's hardly some elitist badge of excellence.

Seeing as your such an expert, why don't you enlighten us on the physiological differences which make it more dangerous for women to box?

Seeing as the BBBofC's medical team couldn't come up with any evidence to deny giving Jane Couch a licence i reckon you might struggle.

I am obviously aware of the differences between men and women, but there's very little evidence to suggest that women are any more at risk from engaging in boxing than men are. The major difference is the presence of ovaries, but being punched in the muff is no more dangerous than taking one to the danglers, and both are covered by a protector. Women are more slight in build, but they also punch less hard for their weight. Their pelvis is different, but I fail to see what impact that has on anything.

If you find watching women box unpleasant, fair enough, that's your prerogative, but don't try and imply that there is significant medical evidence to suggest that it's more dangerous, unless you can back it up with anything more than 'there are lots of doctors who think the same as me.'

I am taking issue with the fact that you said 'I feel women's bodies are more vulnerable' to what? If they were fighting against men, then yes, they would be at a significant disadvantage, but they aren't, and so that would surely negate any differences in physiognomy.

Boxing by it's nature is dangerous, and unless someone is able to prove women are signiciantly more at risk, why shouldn't they fight, nobody is forcing you to watch it. If you want it banned because you don't like it, (I'm not sure if you do) then it's the same argument used by the people who would ban boxing altogether, "I don't like it, therefore it should be banned.'

Oh and it was Riddick who said the wheelchair thing, but I don't see him flying off in a huff about it. Christ mate, breathe.

I didn't fly off anywhere mate, wish I could sometimes, as for being in a huff I'm not the one accusing people of having 'issues' and disliking men in wheelchairs just because I say I don't like to watch women boxing and don't agree that its right. I've not said that I am 'an expert' but I think I've got as good an idea of what I'm talking about as you but just a different opinion. Sure men have their 'vulnerble parts' too but I think the female body is overall far more vulnerble than the males... surely most people would agree with me on that!. Even aside from that my argument is that in my opinion I find it distateful to watch women fighting... I do not see anything outrageous with this statement and many agree with me which is one reason why Female boxing is so limited... though it recived a boost from the Eastwood film.
As for banning thats a tricky one as I'm not for banning things overall as they just tend to go underground, but I think the whole female boxing system should be tightened up and their are certainly women 'boxers' who really should not be allowed in the ring as they have no semblance of boxing skill or ability to defend themselves.
I think female boxing shouldn't be encouraged and those allowed to fight proffessionally should be of a much higher standerd than they are generally now.
This poor girl who died had previously won a golden gloves so must have had some ability, yet from what I've heard she had lost a string of fights in a row and had been inactive so the question must be was she fit enough to fight.
I also think that all the questions around women boxing is more bad news for boxing as a whole and that it serves to underline for many people the fact that boxing as a whole has become a circus... this may sound sexist but I feel its true and that women boxing has damaged the image of boxing as a whole.
And my breathing is fine thanks. :x