Riddick Bowe vs Lennox Lewis - prime vs prime?

[Lexus]

john no offence mate i can just about stomach a discussion of prime Bowe vs Lewis, I cant go into Tyson.

Yeah everyone went mad saying tyson was more shot thant Curt Cobain AFTER THE EVENT, be interesting to dig some threads up from the time, bet more than half were still tipping Tyson to take lewis and his "china chin".

He fought tyson and Lewis is older and battered him.
Theres no need to discuss it any further.

Thanks. I had actually forgotten this thread was about Bowe and Lewis.

For the record, when Lewis vs Tyson was on, I was rooting for Lewis but I was obviously worried that Tyson would land that big shot.

But you have to remember that Lewis had fought top competition and looked good against them while Tyson fought Botha, Norris, Francis, Savarese and Nielsen (!) and looked like shit. I think he knew he was shot.

But when you think about it, none of it's important since what people will remember is Lewis crushing Tyson in june 2002 and that's all there is to it. Unless we invent a time machine, nothing in this discussion really matters.

[J]

john no offence mate i can just about stomach a discussion of prime Bowe vs Lewis, I cant go into Tyson.

Yeah everyone went mad saying tyson was more shot thant Curt Cobain AFTER THE EVENT, be interesting to dig some threads up from the time, bet more than half were still tipping Tyson to take lewis and his "china chin".

He fought tyson and Lewis is older and battered him.
Theres no need to discuss it any further.

Chronologically older. There is a big difference.

sorry graham and no offence meant but bullshit.
Lewis is older than tyson he was born before him, i know fighters peak at different times but so?
As i said be interesting to see some of the threads at the time on the subject

[J]

john no offence mate i can just about stomach a discussion of prime Bowe vs Lewis, I cant go into Tyson.

Yeah everyone went mad saying tyson was more shot thant Curt Cobain AFTER THE EVENT, be interesting to dig some threads up from the time, bet more than half were still tipping Tyson to take lewis and his "china chin".

He fought tyson and Lewis is older and battered him.
Theres no need to discuss it any further.

Thanks. I had actually forgotten this thread was about Bowe and Lewis.

For the record, when Lewis vs Tyson was on, I was rooting for Lewis but I was obviously worried that Tyson would land that big shot.

But you have to remember that Lewis had fought top competition and looked good against them while Tyson fought Botha, Norris, Francis, Savarese and Nielsen (!) and looked like shit. I think he knew he was shot.

But when you think about it, none of it's important since what people will remember is Lewis crushing Tyson in june 2002 and that's all there is to it. Unless we invent a time machine, nothing in this discussion really matters.

yeah fair points there mate and no worries been nice chatting to you

[jamesmcdonnell]

Whilst I rate Lewis very highly as a heavyweight champion, he had definite flaws as a fighter, and reached his peak very late, probably around the age of 32-35.

Tyson's case is complex, especially because the two men had a history. Tyson was always fearful of fighting Lewis, of that there is no doubt, and as young teenagers Lewis mopped the floor with Tyson after Tyson initially got the better of him in their first sparring session.

Tyson is well known for a fragile psyche, he was also terrified of facing old man foreman and refused point blank to fight him when the deal was offered.

Tyson's brief prime was impressive, but he was beating men generally far inferior to a peak Lewis, and Tyson never beat anyone as good as a peak Lewis in his entire career. His best wins were over Ruddock, a petrified Michael Spinks, who had no business being in that ring, and a ring rusty 40 year old Larry Holmes.

Tyson's power would have given him a chance early on, but if Lewis survives the first 4, Tyson loses, just like he did to Douglas and Holyfield.

Bowe on the other hand I have always maintained would have beaten Lewis, he had the right style to do so, as he had an excellent jab, and Lewis had problems with guys who took his jab away (Mavrovic, Akinwande, Mercer, Bruno) and Bowe also had a terrific right hand. I think it would have been a very good fight, but I think Bowe would have prevailed. A peak bowe, the one who beat Holyfield, had a terrific work ethic, fast hands, a good chin and power.

Using Bowe v Golota as an example is bad, Bowe was shot to shit by then from years of weight draining himself. He was shaken by jabs in that fight and his balance looked gone.

There's my take.

[J]

JAMES SINCE WHEN DO HEAVYWEIGHTS GET WEIGHT DRAINED UTTER BOLLOX MATE.

its called not training properly and eating yourself to death not being weight drained.

[Lexus]

Whilst I rate Lewis very highly as a heavyweight champion, he had definite flaws as a fighter, and reached his peak very late, probably around the age of 32-35.

Tyson's case is complex, especially because the two men had a history. Tyson was always fearful of fighting Lewis, of that there is no doubt, and as young teenagers Lewis mopped the floor with Tyson after Tyson initially got the better of him in their first sparring session.

Tyson is well known for a fragile psyche, he was also terrified of facing old man foreman and refused point blank to fight him when the deal was offered.

Tyson's brief prime was impressive, but he was beating men generally far inferior to a peak Lewis, and Tyson never beat anyone as good as a peak Lewis in his entire career. His best wins were over Ruddock, a petrified Michael Spinks, who had no business being in that ring, and a ring rusty 40 year old Larry Holmes.

Tyson's power would have given him a chance early on, but if Lewis survives the first 4, Tyson loses, just like he did to Douglas and Holyfield.

Bowe on the other hand I have always maintained would have beaten Lewis, he had the right style to do so, as he had an excellent jab, and Lewis had problems with guys who took his jab away (Mavrovic, Akinwande, Mercer, Bruno) and Bowe also had a terrific right hand. I think it would have been a very good fight, but I think Bowe would have prevailed. A peak bowe, the one who beat Holyfield, had a terrific work ethic, fast hands, a good chin and power.

Using Bowe v Golota as an example is bad, Bowe was shot to shit by then from years of weight draining himself. He was shaken by jabs in that fight and his balance looked gone.

There's my take.

Good post. I was just wondering, how sure can you be that the article about Tyson being afraid of fighting Foreman is true? I think it's true but after all, it was just one writer's take, wasn't it?

[jamesmcdonnell]

JAMES SINCE WHEN DO HEAVYWEIGHTS GET WEIGHT DRAINED UTTER BOLLOX MATE.

its called not training properly and eating yourself to death not being weight drained.

It's called being weight drained, because that's effectively what it is J. It's something which doesn't happen to most heavyweights J, but because of Bowe's sloppy habits he was constantly killing himself to shed weight before fights. This causes dehydration, which in turn shrinks the amount of fluid around the brain.

Bowe is to blame of course, but what is beyond dispute is that the Bowe who fought Golota, was a shell of the fighter who had beaten Holyfield, he got old overnight.

With regard to the one writers take, Frank Lotierzo is a guy whose writing I trust, I've spoken with him many times, and I don't think he has any reason to make it up, of course I could be wrong.

It also fits a pattern. Tyson avoided Lewis rather than fight him by paying a step aside fee, so I am prepared to believe he would avoid Foreman.

Tyson was probably also intimidated by the fact that Foreman was a formidable man, an intimidating presence.

I can't forget Tyson's words in the corner when Lewis pummelled him. 'I can't do it, he's too big, he's too strong.' Tyson when confronted by an opponent who is able to dish it out, has always come off second best. I think he knew Foreman wouldn't just fold when Tyson went for him.

[J]

so effectiuvely we are talking the same thing, you call it weight drained, i call it piss poor preperation mate, he has no max weight to attain he could come in 25 stone if he wanted its hardly the same as Arce making flyweight is it.

[Lefthookhappy19]

I can't understand anyone picking Bowe to beat Lewis. I just don't understand this. Its almost always based on the Holyfield fights. 215lb non punching Evander Holyfield. Look how often Bowe gets hit. The man struggled with men his own size while Lewis in all fights but his last dismantled big men. Go back and watch the Golota fight and how dangerous and focused Lewis was. Golota was right there to hit just as Bowe would be. Bowe would get taken out.

Lets look at the mindsets also. Lewis for this fight would be totally focused and confident. Bowe on the other hand has a stoppage loss to Lewis in an Olympic final in front of the eyes of the world to deal with. Thats not easily forgotten. Bowe is facing a man just as big as himself and also a man who is a better athlete than him. I think Riddick Bowe knew this and knew what would have happened had him and Lewis fought. Im totally confident 100% Lewis would have beaten him.

[Lexus]

I think Riddick Bowe knew this and knew what would have happened had him and Lewis fought.

Is that why Lewis blew the fight by losing to McCall?

[Grimm]

There are some real Lewis haters. They say Tyson, Holyfield or Bowe
would have beaten him in the right circumstances but in reality:

Lewis beat Bowe (Tko'd his ass)
Lewis beat Holyfield (Most experts say twice)
Lewis beat Tyson (KO'd his ass)
in fact
Lewis fought everybody that would fight him, including Tua and Klitchko,
and beat 'em all.
He beat everybody he ever fought.

That's reality and reality can be such a bitch.

* Fine Lewis was annoyingly arrogent but it's more annoying to constantly
hear this convoluted crap about who would have beaten him.

A prime Tyson definitely would have KO'd Lewis and IMO: Muhammad Ali.

Tyson, when he was quick and aggressive, could deliver a punch early
in a fight to knock out anybody including Lewis. But a prepared Lewis
is just what Tyson can't handle. A guy, unafraid, who keeps him at a
distance, ties him up and frustrates him. If Tyson caught Lewis on an
arrogant day, yeah maybe he could win but how likely is it that Lewis
would have ever taken Tyson lightly? None at all.
A prepared Lewis could only be beat by Tyson in any era via punchers
chance and if that miracle occurred Lewis would beat him in the rematch.
All the evidence says so. Nine times out of ten, Lewis beats Tyson.

Now, an early Foreman, beefed up to about 235.................

Tyson was much much past his prime when he fought Lewis. Tyson in his prime under any circumstance would beat Lewis' gay ass 10 out of 10.

[Grimm]

....many people think bowe would have beaten lewis...and many think lewis would have beaten bowe. the most famous person who thought lewis would beat bowe was bowe.

I remember reading somewhere that Bowe challenged Lewis in 1994 to a rubber match. Apparently, Lewis was more interested in fighting Michael Moorer at the time. Don't know if it's true but I do think the situation is more complicated than Bowe simply being afraid of Lewis.

OH MY GOD...............................You made a non-retarded post.

[silkov]

[Tantum]

"The "out on my feet" quote was BOWES OWN WORDS in an interview a year or two ago!!!!!!! "


Just like Bowe recently said Ali fought well into his fourties...

Bowe was stunned for about 3-4 seconds, I've seen the fight many times.

[Lexus]

....many people think bowe would have beaten lewis...and many think lewis would have beaten bowe. the most famous person who thought lewis would beat bowe was bowe.

I remember reading somewhere that Bowe challenged Lewis in 1994 to a rubber match. Apparently, Lewis was more interested in fighting Michael Moorer at the time. Don't know if it's true but I do think the situation is more complicated than Bowe simply being afraid of Lewis.

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....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................You made a non-retarded post.

Sadly, I can't say the same about your post.

[silkov]

I remember reading somewhere that Bowe challenged Lewis in 1994 to a rubber match. Apparently, Lewis was more interested in fighting Michael Moorer at the time. Don't know if it's true but I do think the situation is more complicated than Bowe simply being afraid of Lewis.

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....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................You made a non-retarded post.

Sadly, I can't say the same about your post.

Stick to fairytales Grimm... 8)

[jamesmcdonnell]

What's with all these stupid fornicating posts with thousands of dots in them, they're screwing the screen up.

[Graham Brett]

john no offence mate i can just about stomach a discussion of prime Bowe vs Lewis, I cant go into Tyson.

Yeah everyone went mad saying tyson was more shot thant Curt Cobain AFTER THE EVENT, be interesting to dig some threads up from the time, bet more than half were still tipping Tyson to take lewis and his "china chin".

He fought tyson and Lewis is older and battered him.
Theres no need to discuss it any further.

Chronologically older. There is a big difference.

sorry graham and no offence meant but bullshit.
Lewis is older than tyson he was born before him, i know fighters peak at different times but so?
As i said be interesting to see some of the threads at the time on the subject

OK, assuming your argument is correct.

Can we match a Tyson and Lewis both at 22 - Who wins?

[jamesmcdonnell]

I would have gone for Tyson, Lewis was very raw, and hittable. However, Tyson would probably have pooped his pants at the prospect and so the fight would never have happened. Tyson's image as this invincible and fearless destroyer or men was one of the most carefully contrived pieces of marketing ever.

[dan1030]

Out on his feet against Herbie Hide? Have you even seen the fight? He was stunned once, but "out on his feet" is quite the exaggeration.

Hmm, stunned once vs dropped 7 times... Wow Herbie must have kicked his ass, right?

How many times was Lewis stunned vs lesser opponents?

Once again Tantum shows his ignorance lol!!

The "out on my feet" quote was BOWES OWN WORDS in an interview a year or two ago!!!!!!!

Try again mate

As recently as a couple of weeks ago, on ESPN2 FNF, Bowe said the harderst he ever got hit was by Herbie...no mention of being out on his feet in that interview, but he did say they were the hardest shots he ever took.

[dan1030]

Hey! My quote from earlier in the thread didn't show up...what's up with that?! Anyway, the above post was in reference to an earlier exchange about Bowe's chin and who could dent it.

[Lexus]

You shouldn't take what fighters say too seriously. Hasim Rahman said Corrie Sanders hit him the hardest which was obviously an effort to taunt Tua. Sanders hits hard,
no doubt, but his "power" comes from his handspeed and southpaw stance i.e you don't see the punch.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yes, agreed, it may have felt the worst, but I would suggest the poo-kicking he got from Golota and Holyfield in the 3rd fight were more serious.

[Grimm]

Tyson, when he was quick and aggressive, could deliver a punch early
in a fight to knock out anybody including Lewis. But a prepared Lewis
is just what Tyson can't handle. A guy, unafraid, who keeps him at a
distance, ties him up and frustrates him. If Tyson caught Lewis on an
arrogant day, yeah maybe he could win but how likely is it that Lewis
would have ever taken Tyson lightly? None at all.
A prepared Lewis could only be beat by Tyson in any era via punchers
chance and if that miracle occurred Lewis would beat him in the rematch.
All the evidence says so. Nine times out of ten, Lewis beats Tyson.

Now, an early Foreman, beefed up to about 235.................

I respect your opinion but there are a few things you have to keep in mind when matching Lewis against other good fighters:
* Lewis always had trouble with good jabbers (Bruno, Briggs, Mercer) and Tyson had a great jab in his prime.
* Lewis prefered working at a VERY slow pace. Anyone who forced him to work at a pace he didn't like made him feel uncomfortable. Tyson worked at a very fast pace.
* Lewis' stamina was good but not that great. Look at the end of the fights with Mercer, Holyfield 2, Mavrovic, Briggs. Tyson had good stamina.
* Lewis' chin, although underrated by many, is not that great. Prime Tyson landed very accurate combinations and there is no way Lewis could take a combination from Tyson. One punch perhaps but not a combination. Tyson has a great chin - it took eight rounds for Lewis to KO a "dead" Tyson. Imagine how easy it would be to hit a prime Tyson, let alone KO him.

Those are Lewis' weaknesses which have been pointed out before, most notably from poster dempseyfire. All this leads me to believe Tyson KO's Lewis.

Tyson has had
trouble with everyone who wasn't afraid of him, even in his prime.
Frankly, I think Tyson was a bluff waiting for Buster Douglas to happen.
Since then, every time he had a fearless opponent he lost.

So you think Frank Bruno and Larry Holmes were afraid of Tyson? Come on let's be logical.

[silkov]

I respect your opinion but there are a few things you have to keep in mind when matching Lewis against other good fighters:
* Lewis always had trouble with good jabbers (Bruno, Briggs, Mercer) and Tyson had a great jab in his prime.
* Lewis prefered working at a VERY slow pace. Anyone who forced him to work at a pace he didn't like made him feel uncomfortable. Tyson worked at a very fast pace.
* Lewis' stamina was good but not that great. Look at the end of the fights with Mercer, Holyfield 2, Mavrovic, Briggs. Tyson had good stamina.
* Lewis' chin, although underrated by many, is not that great. Prime Tyson landed very accurate combinations and there is no way Lewis could take a combination from Tyson. One punch perhaps but not a combination. Tyson has a great chin - it took eight rounds for Lewis to KO a "dead" Tyson. Imagine how easy it would be to hit a prime Tyson, let alone KO him.

Those are Lewis' weaknesses which have been pointed out before, most notably from poster dempseyfire. All this leads me to believe Tyson KO's Lewis.

Tyson has had
trouble with everyone who wasn't afraid of him, even in his prime.
Frankly, I think Tyson was a bluff waiting for Buster Douglas to happen.
Since then, every time he had a fearless opponent he lost.

So you think Frank Bruno and Larry Holmes were afraid of Tyson? Come on let's be logical.

Sorry Grimm but theres nowt logical about your threads!.... :x 8)