Calzaghe - opinions and explanations please

[TigerMoth]

I am very curious about Joe.

With his record, he must have had some exceptional abilities.

I just watched his fight against 43 year old Bernard and I wasn't at all impressed (wasn't impressed with BH's throw one punch and hold either). At one point, Manny Steward (who I felt was fair and very respectful about Joe, all in all), said, Joe is just throwing amatuer, slapping punches.

And, that is my impression as well. Joe simply flailed away at high speed with slapping punches.

But, there must be more to Joe or otherwise some guys with good chins and punching power would have walked right through his slaps and KO'd him.

This didn't happen. So, what the heck did Joe have going for him? Fast hands (with no power), endurance, a good chin - these alone don't get it done.

My impression is that the Marvin Hagler who beat Tommy Hearns, walking through Tommy's bombs, would have destroyed Joe. Am I wrong? What the heck am I missing?

Thanks for insights - I just don't understand Joe and his record.

[gambler49]

I am very curious about Joe.

With his record, he must have had some exceptional abilities.

I just watched his fight against 43 year old Bernard and I wasn't at all impressed (wasn't impressed with BH's throw one punch and hold either). At one point, Manny Steward (who I felt was fair and very respectful about Joe, all in all), said, Joe is just throwing amatuer, slapping punches.

And, that is my impression as well. Joe simply flailed away at high speed with slapping punches.

But, there must be more to Joe or otherwise some guys with good chins and punching power would have walked right through his slaps and KO'd him.

This didn't happen. So, what the heck did Joe have going for him? Fast hands (with no power), endurance, a good chin - these alone don't get it done.

My impression is that the Marvin Hagler who beat Tommy Hearns, walking through Tommy's bombs, would have destroyed Joe. Am I wrong? What the heck am I missing?

Thanks for insights - I just don't understand Joe and his record.

He had a solid chin (tho some will argue)
He had blinding hand speed.
He had great footwork, his ability to get himself in and out of range was superb.
His stamina was A+, he must of trained really well, cos he never seemed to gas.
He had heart, wenever he got clocked heed come back really strong.
However it's tru he did slap a bit. But wat else could he do? His hands where fragile and he couldn't punch his w8 wivout breaking them. It was due to his great skill as a boxer as to his sucess wiv fragile hands.
JC is grossly underated on this site! Personally I tip my hat to him, and wish him well in retirment.

[bennie]

Hopkins could make Jesus Christ look ordinary. Calzaghe is at his best against Jeff Lacy, swamping a man with punches. His ability to throw punches in bunches - hard punches - won him all his fights.

[TigerMoth]

[quote="bennie"]Hopkins could make Jesus Christ look ordinary. [/quote]

Good one.

Thanks for the replies.

[boxerbob]

calzaghes best name win is kessler - enough said

hopkins beat him at 43

hagler half kills joe in 5 brutal rounds

[gambler49]

calzaghes best name win is kessler - enough said

hopkins beat him at 43

hagler half kills joe in 5 brutal rounds

ur an idiot!!!!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Calzaghe was way bigger than Hagler. Marvin walked around close to 160 and wasn't much more than that in the ring. You're talking 20 lbs, that doesn't mean that Marvin couldn't win, but he wouldn't be walking through Joe. Calzaghe's speed of hand and foot would cause trouble for marvin as well.

Calzaghe is easily a top 3 at 168 and approaching, if not in, the top 100 greatest fighters who ever lived. I think he retired just in time, Dawson would have beat him convincingly. I was never a fan of Joe's, but I didn't hate him either.

[bjermaine]

I am very curious about Joe.

With his record, he must have had some exceptional abilities.

I just watched his fight against 43 year old Bernard and I wasn't at all impressed (wasn't impressed with BH's throw one punch and hold either). At one point, Manny Steward (who I felt was fair and very respectful about Joe, all in all), said, Joe is just throwing amatuer, slapping punches.

And, that is my impression as well. Joe simply flailed away at high speed with slapping punches.

But, there must be more to Joe or otherwise some guys with good chins and punching power would have walked right through his slaps and KO'd him.

This didn't happen. So, what the heck did Joe have going for him? Fast hands (with no power), endurance, a good chin - these alone don't get it done.

My impression is that the Marvin Hagler who beat Tommy Hearns, walking through Tommy's bombs, would have destroyed Joe. Am I wrong? What the heck am I missing?

Thanks for insights - I just don't understand Joe and his record.

joe was a good fighter that fought nobodies for almost his entire career and then fought jones and hopkins when they were way past their primes. that's how he stayed undefeated. if you look at who he fought '98-'05 it pathetic how people can think he's an ATG. you can rank calzaghe #1 at 168 but that means nothing. only calzaghe and ottke made their careers at that weight. no fighter with aspirations for being truly great would stay at 168 unless they had great opponents to face, and joe didn't.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

[Goodnight, Irene]

Don't sweat BJerm, his vision of Calzaghe, especially following his drubbing of Jones, is one of a caped, horned, hooved creature over-seeing Hell.

His contempt for all things Calzaghe is pretty juvenile, being the absolutely shameless apologist for Jones he is. Nothing like a handy dose of double-standards where competition is concerned.

I imagine it was a brutal scene when Calzaghe shut Jones out, with a distraught BJerm throwing himself to the floor in theatrics not out of place in a scene from The Bird Cage

[Bricks]

I am very curious about Joe.

With his record, he must have had some exceptional abilities.

I just watched his fight against 43 year old Bernard and I wasn't at all impressed (wasn't impressed with BH's throw one punch and hold either). At one point, Manny Steward (who I felt was fair and very respectful about Joe, all in all), said, Joe is just throwing amatuer, slapping punches.

And, that is my impression as well. Joe simply flailed away at high speed with slapping punches.

But, there must be more to Joe or otherwise some guys with good chins and punching power would have walked right through his slaps and KO'd him.

This didn't happen. So, what the heck did Joe have going for him? Fast hands (with no power), endurance, a good chin - these alone don't get it done.

My impression is that the Marvin Hagler who beat Tommy Hearns, walking through Tommy's bombs, would have destroyed Joe. Am I wrong? What the heck am I missing?

Thanks for insights - I just don't understand Joe and his record.

Well it was the worst performance of Joe's career and he had never looked so impotent in his life for the first six rounds.

Bernard had a perfect strategy to nullify Joe's whirlwind flurrying in-close style.

You have to hand it to the master Hopkins he saw something 40 odd other foes didn't he saw that by holding one of Joe's arms he didnt allow Joe the leverage or momentum to flurry. Thus it was a shutout for 6 rounds plus of course the first round knockdown. But this is where Joe showed his championship credentials and heart and learned to adapt and came on strongish the last 6 rounds. I still think Hopkins did enough to win by 1-2 rounds , in my mind it was one of those close but clear victories. Perhaps close in terms of rounds won, but Bernards rounds had been bigger ones in my view,and of course the knockdown.

Regardless to judge Joe you need to look at fights like the incredible passion filled night he destroyed the myth of Jeff Lacey,who forget what people think of him now, was built up as a beast before the fight, and you need to see the Eubanks win, the Veit one round kayo, the Kessler job. Ironically I also think he lost by 1 round in a super tight and exciting battle with Robin Reid but it ws one of those which could have gone either way. But at the same time it's entirely fair to say Joe didnt really fight anyone tough aparrt from a weight drained on short notice Eubanks, a slightly over the hill Brewer, and a Robin Reid during the first 8 years of his reign which he more or less wasted in obscurity in Wales. It is fair to suggest he makes too much capital out of beating a totally shot Roy Jones and his controversial win over Hopkins who was 43.

[bjermaine]

Don't sweat BJerm, his vision of Calzaghe, especially following his drubbing of Jones, is one of a caped, horned, hooved creature over-seeing Hell.

His contempt for all things Calzaghe is pretty juvenile, being the absolutely shameless apologist for Jones he is. Nothing like a handy dose of double-standards where competition is concerned.

I imagine it was a brutal scene when Calzaghe shut Jones out, with a distraught BJerm throwing himself to the floor in theatrics not out of place in a scene from The Bird Cage

please forgive irene for not contributing to the topic. all of you must understand that these boards are irene's life. without message boards and other sites where you can meet random people, irene's existence would be meaningless. i've included a signature at the bottom of my posts from now on so irene can go directly to his other favorite site.

for irene - http://www.omegle.com :)

[gambler49]

Don't sweat BJerm, his vision of Calzaghe, especially following his drubbing of Jones, is one of a caped, horned, hooved creature over-seeing Hell.

His contempt for all things Calzaghe is pretty juvenile, being the absolutely shameless apologist for Jones he is. Nothing like a handy dose of double-standards where competition is concerned.

I imagine it was a brutal scene when Calzaghe shut Jones out, with a distraught BJerm throwing himself to the floor in theatrics not out of place in a scene from The Bird Cage

please forgive irene for not contributing to the topic. all of you must understand that these boards are irene's life. without message boards and other sites where you can meet random people, irene's existence would be meaningless. i've included a signature at the bottom of my posts from now on so irene can go directly to his other favorite site.

for irene - http://www.omegle.com :)

LMFAO!
I must say I do wonder about GI, as he seems like a strange indavidual. But a character all the same... To be fair.

[gambler49]

I am very curious about Joe.

With his record, he must have had some exceptional abilities.

I just watched his fight against 43 year old Bernard and I wasn't at all impressed (wasn't impressed with BH's throw one punch and hold either). At one point, Manny Steward (who I felt was fair and very respectful about Joe, all in all), said, Joe is just throwing amatuer, slapping punches.

And, that is my impression as well. Joe simply flailed away at high speed with slapping punches.

But, there must be more to Joe or otherwise some guys with good chins and punching power would have walked right through his slaps and KO'd him.

This didn't happen. So, what the heck did Joe have going for him? Fast hands (with no power), endurance, a good chin - these alone don't get it done.

My impression is that the Marvin Hagler who beat Tommy Hearns, walking through Tommy's bombs, would have destroyed Joe. Am I wrong? What the heck am I missing?

Thanks for insights - I just don't understand Joe and his record.

joe was a good fighter that fought nobodies for almost his entire career and then fought jones and hopkins when they were way past their primes. that's how he stayed undefeated. if you look at who he fought '98-'05 it pathetic how people can think he's an ATG. you can rank calzaghe #1 at 168 but that means nothing. only calzaghe and ottke made their careers at that weight. no fighter with aspirations for being truly great would stay at 168 unless they had great opponents to face, and joe didn't.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

LMAO.
U seem to hav a biased veiw here of JC. IMO ur full of crap in this instance. Anyway thats just my opinion.

[Bricks]

Don't sweat BJerm, his vision of Calzaghe, especially following his drubbing of Jones, is one of a caped, horned, hooved creature over-seeing Hell.

His contempt for all things Calzaghe is pretty juvenile, being the absolutely shameless apologist for Jones he is. Nothing like a handy dose of double-standards where competition is concerned.

I imagine it was a brutal scene when Calzaghe shut Jones out, with a distraught BJerm throwing himself to the floor in theatrics not out of place in a scene from The Bird Cage

please forgive irene for not contributing to the topic. all of you must understand that these boards are irene's life. without message boards and other sites where you can meet random people, irene's existence would be meaningless. i've included a signature at the bottom of my posts from now on so irene can go directly to his other favorite site.

for irene - http://www.omegle.com :)

LMFAO!
I must say I do wonder about GI, as he seems like a strange indavidual..

you might want to correct your spelling of individual otherwise you will be hounded to death! DD just a little humour !

[Goodnight, Irene]

Don't sweat BJerm, his vision of Calzaghe, especially following his drubbing of Jones, is one of a caped, horned, hooved creature over-seeing Hell.

His contempt for all things Calzaghe is pretty juvenile, being the absolutely shameless apologist for Jones he is. Nothing like a handy dose of double-standards where competition is concerned.

I imagine it was a brutal scene when Calzaghe shut Jones out, with a distraught BJerm throwing himself to the floor in theatrics not out of place in a scene from The Bird Cage

please forgive irene for not contributing to the topic. all of you must understand that these boards are irene's life. without message boards and other sites where you can meet random people, irene's existence would be meaningless. i've included a signature at the bottom of my posts from now on so irene can go directly to his other favorite site.

for irene - http://www.omegle.com :)

Man, dead horses & all --- LOL. Let me ask you, BJerm, do you think your view of Calzaghe is objective? This'll be good :)

[Goodnight, Irene]

I am very curious about Joe.

With his record, he must have had some exceptional abilities.

I just watched his fight against 43 year old Bernard and I wasn't at all impressed (wasn't impressed with BH's throw one punch and hold either). At one point, Manny Steward (who I felt was fair and very respectful about Joe, all in all), said, Joe is just throwing amatuer, slapping punches.

And, that is my impression as well. Joe simply flailed away at high speed with slapping punches.

But, there must be more to Joe or otherwise some guys with good chins and punching power would have walked right through his slaps and KO'd him.

This didn't happen. So, what the heck did Joe have going for him? Fast hands (with no power), endurance, a good chin - these alone don't get it done.

My impression is that the Marvin Hagler who beat Tommy Hearns, walking through Tommy's bombs, would have destroyed Joe. Am I wrong? What the heck am I missing?

Thanks for insights - I just don't understand Joe and his record.

joe was a good fighter that fought nobodies for almost his entire career and then fought jones and hopkins when they were way past their primes. that's how he stayed undefeated. if you look at who he fought '98-'05 it pathetic how people can think he's an ATG. you can rank calzaghe #1 at 168 but that means nothing. only calzaghe and ottke made their careers at that weight. no fighter with aspirations for being truly great would stay at 168 unless they had great opponents to face, and joe didn't.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

LMAO.
U seem to hav a biased veiw here of JC. IMO ur full of crap in this instance. Anyway thats just my opinion.

Regardless of what you or anyone else may think of me, as you can (& will, with subsequent ramblings on his part) see BJerm has nothing but pure, unadulterated bile to spew in the direction of his Demon non-pareil, Joe Calzaghe. He's always had an axe to grind, but ever since Calzaghe put his boyhood idol Jones through a meat-grinder, the hate has hit extraordinary heights.

[bjermaine]

Regardless of what you or anyone else may think of me, as you can (& will, with subsequent ramblings on his part) see BJerm has nothing but pure, unadulterated bile to spew in the direction of his Demon non-pareil, Joe Calzaghe. He's always had an axe to grind, but ever since Calzaghe put his boyhood idol Jones through a meat-grinder, the hate has hit extraordinary heights.

all in good fun irene. i'll say some good things about calzaghe. first off, i've stated that he is a very good fighter. he's was never much to watch but he had a difficult style which served him well. good stamina and a pretty good chin from what we saw. a big problem historically is his list of opponents is terrible. you say i'm a hypocrite for supporting jones and bashing calzaghe because of their opponents. jones fought some bums that were mandatories but his list of opponents is clearly better. overall, jones doesn't have the greatest resume but he was the best fighter of his era.

my main problem with calzaghe is that he took the easy way out in his career. only fought bhop and jones when they were old and others had defeated them. you know and i know that joe would have never fought a prime jones. joe will get in the hall of fame because he's a brit but i feel, obviously, that he doesn't deserve to be mention as an all-time great.

[bjermaine]

There are videos of Jones saying he didn't want to fight Joe years ago because of the risk vs reward value. And B-hop pulled out of an earlier fight with Joe, agreeing on a price and then asking for double the next day.

maybe so but i don't see how anyone who follows the sport would pick joe over roy in their primes.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I wouldn't, but that doesn't really address the point SG's making.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It doesn't address it at all. It's the same joke when people talk about Michalczewski, just because Jones would have been favored doesn't make them obliged to come to the US for less money than a mandatory at home.

As great as Roy was he was NEVER a draw. The man barely ever fought in Vegas. He would go fight in Iowa in front of 3 or 4,000 people. DM & Joe packed houses at home. As soon as the money was there, Calzaghe came over and fought the two non draws.

Not sure why everyone acts like an old man was picking on old men. Joe was slightly younger, big deal.

[ben geoghegan]

Cutting through the drama:

Calzaghe was a good fighter. Very good. But not all-time great or even great. Did not do enough to warrant that high a class. His record is deceptively tough. But the Kessler win lost its shine quickly. He traveled late, fought in a traditionally weak division his entire career and the record is diminished for that. That said, he has heart and resilience: he'll fight you if you come to fight him. He's a average-sized-to-smallish super middle which is overlooked. Hopkins was much bigger. And I had him beating Hopkins pretty comfortably in that stinker.

Could Calzaghe have been great? We'll probably never know now. His record is incomplete. Dawson was a necessary component. And I don't think it would have been a walkover for Dawson either. I'd have given Calzaghe a fighting chance. History got cheated of that one and not by Dawson. Calzaghe chose to bow out because the risk was too great. But its that risk that builds legacy. Not a goofy 0 at the end of the ledger. Ask Ji Won Kim, Ricardo Lopez or Sven Ottke.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Cutting through the drama:

Calzaghe was a good fighter. Very good. But not all-time great or even great. Did not do enough to warrant that high a class. His record is deceptively tough. But the Kessler win lost its shine quickly. He traveled late, fought in a traditionally weak division his entire career and the record is diminished for that. That said, he has heart and resilience: he'll fight you if you come to fight him. He's a average-sized-to-smallish super middle which is overlooked. Hopkins was much bigger. And I had him beating Hopkins pretty comfortably in that stinker.

Could Calzaghe have been great? We'll probably never know now. His record is incomplete. Dawson was a necessary component. And I don't think it would have been a walkover for Dawson either. I'd have given Calzaghe a fighting chance. History got cheated of that one and not by Dawson. Calzaghe chose to bow out because the risk was too great. But its that risk that builds legacy. Not a goofy 0 at the end of the ledger. Ask Ji Won Kim, Ricardo Lopez or Sven Ottke.

Great post...until you committed blasphemy by insulting the immortal Ricardo Lopez

[dempseyfire]

It doesn't address it at all. It's the same joke when people talk about Michalczewski, just because Jones would have been favored doesn't make them obliged to come to the US for less money than a mandatory at home.

As great as Roy was he was NEVER a draw. The man barely ever fought in Vegas. He would go fight in Iowa in front of 3 or 4,000 people. DM & Joe packed houses at home. As soon as the money was there, Calzaghe came over and fought the two non draws.

Not sure why everyone acts like an old man was picking on old men. Joe was slightly younger, big deal.

Come on Saad, that's complete bull. So Calzaghe-Roy/DM-Roy wouldn't have made Calzaghe or Darius's their biggest pay BY FAR if they had been made?? . . .give me a break. A Darius-Roy super fight in 99 or 2000 would have BROKEN THE BANK in any neutral venue; more money than either fighter ever made in any other fight.

[dempseyfire]

There are videos of Jones saying he didn't want to fight Joe years ago because of the risk vs reward value. And B-hop pulled out of an earlier fight with Joe, agreeing on a price and then asking for double the next day.

maybe so but i don't see how anyone who follows the sport would pick joe over roy in their primes.

Especially B-hop, he agreed on a price and then asked for double the next day .

Source????

[bjermaine]

Find yourself a source, it was nearly ten years ago.

since we don't need sources, calzaghe admitted in an interview a few years back that jones was the only fighter he felt he couldn't defeat. i remember reading it and it being quoted on other message boards but i don't have a source. this is part of the reason he chose to fight jones, instead of someone like dawson.