Top 25 Non-Heavyweights of All-Time

[Ambling Alp]

A couple of years ago, Jezzamundo had a great idea and we rated the Top 20 Heavyweights of all-time. 20 pts for each first place vote, 19 for 2nd etc. Then he tallied the points. Sort of like they do college football and basketball ratings.

Anyway, I thought we could do the same for non-heavyweights; though I expanded to a Top 25. A fighter will get 25 points each time someone rates him #1, 24 each time someone rates him #2 etc.
This will include "borderline cases" of fighters who fought as heavyweights but were great fighters in other weight classes. So Bob Fitzsimmons, Michael Spinks, Ezzard Charles are eligible here. Ali, Louis, Holmes etc would not be here.

Active fighters(anyone who has fought with the last 12 months) are not eligible.
Pleae for vote 25 or your vote won't be counted.

To get things started, here are my Top 25:
1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Harry Greb
5. Sam Langford
6. Ray Leonard
7. Carlos Monzon
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Roberto Duran
11. Jimmy Wilde
12. Marvin Hagler
13. Sandy Saddler
14. Mickey Walker
15. Barney Ross
16. Joe Gans
17. Benny Leonard
18. Alexis Arguello
19. Eder Jofre
20. Bob Fitzsimmons
21. Michael Spinks
22. Jose Napoles
23. Salvador Sanchez
24. Gene Tunney
25. Thomas Hearns

I will tally the points in a week.
This should be fun!

[Panzerfaust]

1# Sugar Ray Robinson
2# Harry Greb
3# Henry Armstrong
4# Ezzard Charles
5# Willie Pep
6# Archie Moore
7# Sam Langford
8# Carlos Monzon
9# Joe Gans
10# Roberto Duran
11# Eder Jofre
12# Bob Fitzimmons
13# Sugar Ray Leonard
14# Mickey Walker
15# Jimmy Wilde
16# Joe Walcott
17# Barney Ross
18# Sandy Saddler
19# Panama Al Brown
20# Gene Tunney
21# Emile Grifith
22# Jose Napoles
23# Jack Dempsey
24# Tony Canzoneri
25# Marvin Hagler

This was hard and i will probably change my mind as we go along

[gambler49]

1) Ray Robinson
2) Harry Greb
3) Willie Pep
4) Hank Armstrong
6) Mickey Walker
7) Benny Leonard
8 Ray Leonard
9) Roberto Duran
10) Sandy Saddler
11) Jimmy Wilde
12) Julio Cesar Chavez
13) Tony Canzoneri
14) Emile Griffith
15) Gene Tunney
16) Ezzard Charles
17) Carlos Monzon
18) Stanley Ketchel
19) Marvin Hagler
20) Beau Jack
21) Jake Lamotta
22) Marcel Cerdan
23) Kid Chocolate
24) Sam Langford
25) Tommy Hearns
25) Joe Walcott

[Expug]

Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Mickey Walker
Bennie Leonard
Carlos Monzon
Roberto Duran
Barney Ross
Jimmy McClarnin
Sandy Saddler
Willie Pep
Ike Williams
Beau Jack
Marvin Hagler
Charley Burley
Sam Langford
Jimmy Wilde
Bob Foster
Gene Tunney
Tony Canzoneri
Terry McGovern
Panama Al Brown
Ray Leonard

Im sure I'll think of a couple more later.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

1. SRR
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Sam Langford
4. Hank Armstrong
5. Harry greb
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Benny Leonard
9. archie Moore
10. Kid Gavilan
11. Tony Canzoneri
12. Ray Leonard
13. Pernell Whitaker
14. Emile Griffith
15. Thomas Hearns
16. Mickey walker
17. Jimmy McClarnin
18. Sandy saddler
19. Marvin hagler
20. maxie Rosenbloom
21. Barney Ross
22. Gene Tunney
23. Eder Jofre
24. Tommy Loughran
25. Charley Burley/Holman williams- split their points

That's brutal

[jezzamundo]

[quote="Ambling Alp"]A couple of years ago, Jezzamundo had a great idea and we rated the Top 20 Heavyweights of all-time. 20 pts for each first place vote, 19 for 2nd etc. Then he tallied the points. Sort of like they do college football and basketball ratings.

Er... actually that's not how I tallied the rankings. Unfortunately a points based system is very flawed for situations like the following: 10 people are voting on the ranking of fighter A and fighter B. 9 people rate fighter A as the #1 and fighter B and the #2. One person votes for fighter B as the #1 and fighter A as the #20. Based on a points system:
Fighter A: 181 points
Fighter B: 191 points

I suggest making the final tally based on a preferential voting system, like that used in political elections in many countries. Basically, majority rules, no matter what, and in the case of a draw, you can go back to the points system. So in the above scenario, Fighter A is voted in the #1 position by a margin of 9-1. Then you compare the votes for Fighter B with the next fighter. It is a bit more work than tallying points, but worth it because the results are far more meaningful. This is the system I use for the BoxRec forum heavyweight rankings. PM me if you need more advice on how a preferential voting system works.

BTW good topic, I would post a top 25 of my own, but I really don't know enough about a lot of the fighters to make a proper judgment.

[Ambling Alp]

I didn't remember you doing it that way. That might be a good way to do it. I will PM you and ask about the details.
Regardless, I hope people continue to rate their top 25. It has been interesting so far.

[allworld80]

Has there ever been a lone brave soul who didn't rate SRR as #1? I suppose they would have been led into a dark alley and never seen from again in any case. I honestly don't think I've seen any list that didn't have him #1. A consensus in boxing is very rare.

[allworld80]

And for the record I have him #1 as well, just to avoid any confusion.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Has there ever been a lone brave soul who didn't rate SRR as #1? I suppose they would have been led into a dark alley and never seen from again in any case. I honestly don't think I've seen any list that didn't have him #1. A consensus in boxing is very rare.

I think Duran from Montreal would have beat him and he and Leonard is damn close to 50/50. That's the best I can do. I've seen Hank & Greb rated #1 before.

I'm surprised not to see Gavilan on any other lists.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Has there ever been a lone brave soul who didn't rate SRR as #1? I suppose they would have been led into a dark alley and never seen from again in any case. I honestly don't think I've seen any list that didn't have him #1. A consensus in boxing is very rare.

I have seen Armstrong &, occasionally, Greb top lists inclusive of Robinson.

[Ezzard]

Robinson
Langford
Greb
Armstrong
Charles
Duran
Saddler
Pep
Moore
Fitzsimmons
Gans
Leonard (Benny)
Tunney
Wilde
Griffiths
Monzon
Leonard (Ray)
Jofre
Canzoneri
Burley
Walker
Sanchez
Hagler
Ross
McLarnin/Loughran

[Idisagree]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Roberto Duran
7. Sugar Ray Leonard
8. Archie Moore
9. Benny Leonard
10.Willie Pep
11.Pernell Whitaker
12.Marvin Hagler
13.Thomas Hearns
14.Tony Canzoneri
15.Mickey Walker
16.Emile Griffith
17.Sandy Sadler
18.Charley Burley
19.Barney Ross
20.Carlos Monzon
21.Eder Jofre
22.Gene Tuney
23.Jose Napoles
24.Joe Gans
25.Alexis Arguello

[jezzamundo]

Due to my lack of knowledge of many old timers, I'm only posting a top 15:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Sam Langford
6. Archie Moore
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Carlos Monzon
11. Marvin Hagler
12. Thomas Hearns
13. Gene Tunney
14. Pernell Whitaker
15. Manny Pacquiao

[p4p1]

Due to my lack of knowledge of many old timers, I'm only posting a top 15:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Sam Langford
6. Archie Moore
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Carlos Monzon
11. Marvin Hagler
12. Thomas Hearns
13. Gene Tunney
14. Pernell Whitaker
15. Manny Pacquiao

Glad you said it.

in what way?

[jezzamundo]

There is some debate as to whether Manny of Floyd should be the current p4p #1, but there should be none as to who is the greater fighter at this stage. I honestly think that if Manny beats Floyd, he should definitely be in the top 15, borderline top 10. Right now, I'd say he's certainly in the top 25. I scoured the BoxRec p4p top 100 and could not find as name I would rather see in the #15 spot more than Pacquiao. I'm not going to argue that he definitely belongs there, because I simply don't know enough about some of the old timers to make an argument. That's why I stopped at 15. In the end my knowledge as a boxing historian is pretty much limited to the heavyweight division, and I don't really have strong opinions on any boxer pre-Joe Louis.

[p4p1]

Glad you said it.

in what way?

I cannot for the life of me agree that Manny Pacquiao should be listed at the #15 greatest non-heavyweight of all-time.

why because he isnt from before 1980, hes beaten 13 world champions and 4 guys who will get in the HOF and is the only fighter to go from flywieght world champion all the way to welterweight champ

[gambler49]

1. Sugar Ray Leonard
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Roberto Duran
7. Sugar Ray Leonard
8. Archie Moore
9. Benny Leonard
10.Willie Pep
11.Pernell Whitaker
12.Marvin Hagler
13.Thomas Hearns
14.Tony Canzoneri
15.Mickey Walker
16.Emile Griffith
17.Sandy Sadler
18.Charley Burley
19.Barney Ross
20.Carlos Monzon
21.Eder Jofre
22.Gene Tuney
23.Jose Napoles
24.Joe Gans
25.Alexis Arguello

Fix it!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The only thing that makes Manny a no-no is the lists are supposed to exclude active fighters.

[dempseyfire]

1) Harry Greb

2) Ray Robinson

3) Sam Langford

4) Henry Armstrong

5) Willie Pep

6) Ezzard Charles

7) Benny Leonard

Mickey Walker

9) Roberto Duran

10) Gene Tunney

11) Archie Moore

12) Bob Fitz

13) Tommy Gibbons

14) Joe Gans

15) Barney Ross

16) Eder Jofre

17) Ray Leonard

18) Emile Griffith

19) Tommy Loughran

20) Joe Walcott

21) Tommy Ryan

22) Sandy Saddler

23) Kid Gavilan

24) Jack Dillon

25) Manny Pacquao/Tony Canzoneri

I don't have any arguments with excluding Pacman but I think he's accomplished enought to put him at the tail-end of the top 25. IMO he's definitely above Whitaker, Chavez and Arguello.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Dodged the "8)" bullet this time. Good for you.

To the bloke somewhere up there who put Ray Leonard at #1, you're kidding. Fan, much?

[Idisagree]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Roberto Duran
7. Sugar Ray Leonard
8. Archie Moore
9. Benny Leonard
10.Willie Pep
11.Pernell Whitaker
12.Marvin Hagler
13.Thomas Hearns
14.Tony Canzoneri
15.Mickey Walker
16.Emile Griffith
17.Sandy Sadler
18.Charley Burley
19.Barney Ross
20.Carlos Monzon
21.Eder Jofre
22.Gene Tuney
23.Jose Napoles
24.Joe Gans
25.Alexis Arguello

Fix it!

Thanks

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Where would you have him then? He would be probably come in 30-40 for me. Ratings among all time great fighters are far too subjective to hold your own opinion so high as to call it ridiculous to have Pac at #15. It's too high for me too, but it certainly isn't wrong.

[gambler49]

1) Harry Greb

2) Ray Robinson

3) Sam Langford

4) Henry Armstrong

5) Willie Pep

6) Ezzard Charles

7) Benny Leonard

Mickey Walker

9) Roberto Duran

10) Gene Tunney

11) Archie Moore

12) Bob Fitz

13) Tommy Gibbons

14) Joe Gans

15) Barney Ross

16) Eder Jofre

17) Ray Leonard

18) Emile Griffith

19) Tommy Loughran

20) Joe Walcott

21) Tommy Ryan

22) Sandy Saddler

23) Kid Gavilan

24) Jack Dillon

25) Manny Pacquao/Tony Canzoneri

I don't have any arguments with excluding Pacman but I think he's accomplished enought to put him at the tail-end of the top 25. IMO he's definitely above Whitaker, Chavez and Arguello.

#1 Pac is current
#2 U hav him too low for my liking... Im not happy wiv that... Also Id say u hav Canzoneri a bit low also.. Nice to see u rate Greb so high

[Idisagree]

I don't have any arguments with excluding Pacman but I think he's accomplished enought to put him at the tail-end of the top 25. IMO he's definitely above Whitaker, Chavez and Arguello.

Head to head I think Whitaker defeats Pac.
I pick Pac to defeat Chavez.
Arguello maybe 50/50. I have to think more about this one.