Mike Tyson vs Joe Louis

[Lexus]

Let's say these two accurate combination punchers met each other in their respective prime, who wins and why?

[dempseyfire]

Louis may suffer a flash KD early but he gets up pissed and hurts Mike . . Mike retreats into the plodding shell as he always does when hurt . . .Louis attacks and ends it in the 5th round.

[tonyevs]

It hurts me to say it but...Tyson KO`s the Brown Bomber early.

Maybe its just my age why I favour Tyson but Tyson always has had a great chin and punch, but Joe could be hurt by smaller fighters.

If the two were around today in their primes they wouldn`t even be in the same weight categories, Joe would be an averaged sized cruiser.

[Tantum]

Joe could be hurt by smaller fighters.

Like Tyson was hurt by Holyfield?

[dan1030]

For the first four or five rounds Tyson would have a real chance of getting Louis (or anyone else) out of there. After that, I'd see it being almost all Louis--who would have a very good chance of getting up and recovering from an early KD, if it happened.
The way I see it--just one guy's opinion of course--any early KO could go either way, middle-to-late round KO would most likely be a Louis win, and a decision would almost certainly favor Louis. So over-all I'd have to favor Louis, with Tyson a very live underdog whose chance of winning would rapidly fade as the fight went on.

[Grimm]

Joe could be hurt by smaller fighters.

Like Tyson was hurt by Holyfield?

Like Tyson was past his prime. Stop bringing up bullshit Tyson was passed his fornicating prime when he lost to Holyfield and Lewis.

[Tantum]

Yeah, Tyson was past his prime.... From sitting on his ass? Or maybe sitting on Bubba's cock in jail.

Holyfield had just been through a whole hell of a lot of wars, had heart problems, and is 4 years older than Tyson...


And when did I mention Lewis??

[Lexus]

Louis may suffer a flash KD early but he gets up pissed and hurts Mike . . Mike retreats into the plodding shell as he always does when hurt . . .Louis attacks and ends it in the 5th round.

I hardly know anything about Joe Louis so I've got a question: Did Louis ever face anyone with Tyson's speed, power and chin?

[barry]

In my opinion, Louis never faced anyone that compares to Tyson! That being said, I think Louis was the second greatest heavyweight ever, but the Tyson of 1986-1988 could have beaten any heavyweight in history, including Ali! Forget all about the Tyson that returned from prison, he wasn't half the fighter he was beforehand. His losses gainst Holyfield were not Tyson at his best, but he took a viscious ass-kicking for 11 rounds, and even an old Tyson was not taken out in one, or two rounds, The Lewis loss means very little in all-time significance, after all...Tyson was about 15 years past his prime when he faced Lewis!

[Tantum]

That being said, I think Louis was the second greatest heavyweight ever, but the Tyson of 1986-1988 could have beaten any heavyweight in history, including Ali!

So you hold Ali above Louis? At #1?

[tonyevs]

Joe could be hurt by smaller fighters.

Like Tyson was hurt by Holyfield?

Even the badly washed up Tyson of today was never taken out cleanly, he always soaked up a barrage of shots that like him or not would have finished almost any heavyweight in history earlier.

You overlook Louis`s style in respect of how he fought in his prime, after all why did they call him amongst other names `The Brown Bomber`, he`d fight Tysons fight.

The Brown Bomber is my favourite heavyweight ever, but that does not mean I`d favour him over all the others who followed him.

[dempseyfire]

This whole ´he was half the fighter he was against Holyfield´´ is crap. If you stop watching the Tyson highlight reels and watch his whole fights in the 80s he really looks rather pedestrian much of the time. Many times he gave in to wild swings and got frustrated in the ring. He was NEVER consistent about moving his head, and while he threw combinations he could go 4-5 rounds without throwing a single one. He always looked good blwoing about scared guys not in his class (from your Michael Johnsons to your Spinks to your Stewart to Bruno 11 to Golota) but against durable guys who could punch and box it was a different story. While Tyson had a great chin, he did not like getting hit, and once he tasted good power he went to 2nd gear and became a rather ordinary plodding HW but with above average speed and power. Against Ruddock, I though he looked pretty bad . . .Razor was a guy who´s ENTIRE gameplane was to throw his smash uppercut . . no jab, no movement, no combinations, no straight shots . . and Tyson just looked befuddled for the first 5 rounds, although he was winning the fight. When he got hit hard, that´s how he became . . he didn´t start opening up on Razor until he finally realized the guy in front of him had no skills. Against guys who kept up the pressure and boxed him (Douglas and Holyfield), he mentally crumbled. EVen against Lewis, while he took a good beating for most of the fight, he mentally quit after the first round.
Against Louis, he´d not only be fighting a very strong hitter (much harder hitting then Holyfield or Douglas), but someone who had greater handspeed and threw quicker combinations. Tyson would be outjabbed and then be shocked when Louis would beat him on the inside exchanges. Louis, while he suffered the occasional flash KD, had a very good chin and would wear Tyson down to mid round knockout.

To answer JR´s question, he never faced a fighter with all of Tyson´s credentials (as Tyson never faced anyone like Louis) but he did face big punchers (the Baer brothers, Schmeling) very fast boxers (Conn) and iron-chins (Godoy, Baer). And I see Louis KO victims Schmeling and Walcott beating all of the guys Tyson beat in the 80s, while I don´t see Tubbs, Berbick, Thomas etc. being more then contenders in Louis´s era . .

[barry]

I've seen every Tyson fight in its entirety several times over and anyone who thinks the post-Tyson was anywhere near the 1986-1988 Tyson, well the thought of glasses come to mind! The Tyson that dempseyfire draws out is the exact post-prison Tyson, but it is nothing near of what Tyson was in his prime! Pretty much everything that was said should be reversed. Tyson rarely, if ever got discouraged, he was constantly bobbing and weaving, moving his head and always had his gloves up! He worked his way in with a jab and then threw monster combinations anytime the opportunity presented itself. Go back and watch all of the pre-1990 Tyson fights, most of your references are about the post-Prison Tyson, which is pretty much what those of us that say forget that Tyson because he wasn't the prime-Tyson. Maybe the argument would be better if you can present a number of instances prior to 1988, but I know that it's not possible because there are very, very few instances to reach for!

Somone asked about my 1 & 2,

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes

[dempseyfire]

there are plenty of instances . . watch his title winning effort vs Berbick . . .I dont think he even moves his head once!!!!!!!!

It´s a myth that he was this always fast moving, constantly bobbing and weaving, combination executing machine . . .watch him vs Holmes, Bruno, Tucker, Smith . . . his post prison form can be seen clearly in earlier fights.

[Eric the Viking]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes

Iron Mike makes your top 10, but Smokin' Joe doesn't?

Perhaps this list is based on perceived talent rather than actual ring accomplishments? Because that's the only conceivable way I could see anyone putting Tyson above guys like Foreman, Liston, Holmes and Frazier. (And Patterson, and Walcott, and Lewis, and Holyfield, and and and...)

[barry]

Just one example, but what kind of actual ring accomplishments did Liston have better over Tyson?

[Lexus]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes

Iron Mike makes your top 10, but Smokin' Joe doesn't?

Perhaps this list is based on perceived talent rather than actual ring accomplishments? Because that's the only conceivable way I could see anyone putting Tyson above guys like Foreman, Liston, Holmes and Frazier. (And Patterson, and Walcott, and Lewis, and Holyfield, and and and...)

Eric! What does your list look like?

[Eric the Viking]

Eric! What does your list look like?

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 8&start=40

It's at the bottom of that page (page 2 of the thread), along with some explanatory comments.

[elmersalsa]

I do not think that Tyson EVER reached his prime or peak...By 1986-88, he looked AWESOME, but still in my view, Tyson was NOT A COMPLETE FIGHTER like the Ali version of 1965-67 or Louis version of 1936-41 or Holmes of 1980-83.

He was getting there, but we all know what happened: Don King, the firing of Kevin Rooney and the whole Team Tyson and of course, Robin Givens.

And to tell you the truth, I cannot picture a Joe Louis, as great as he was, taking an uppercut or left hook from Tyson...He would have been too small for the Iron Man.

[dempseyfire]

Too small? Louis was completly obliterating guys twice Tyson´s size, yet the shorter squat Tyson, who weighed only 10 lbs more then a prime Louis at his peak, is too big? That´s ridiculous . . .Louis was a bigger man then Holyfield and we saw what the Real Deal did to Tyson . . .

The Tyson mystique seems to never falter. That´s why a good number of people actually believed he could beat Vitali Klitschko before the Williams fights, and some still do . .

That´s why he was even money vs Lewis, and favored over Holyfield

When your best performance is over underachieving, fat crackhead Tony Tubbs, there has to be a problem with this scenario . . .

[Lexus]

Too small? Louis was completly obliterating guys twice Tyson´s size, yet the shorter squat Tyson, who weighed only 10 lbs more then a prime Louis at his peak, is too big? That´s ridiculous . . .Louis was a bigger man then Holyfield and we saw what the Real Deal did to Tyson . . .

The Tyson mystique seems to never falter. That´s why a good number of people actually believed he could beat Vitali Klitschko before the Williams fights, and some still do . .

That´s why he was even money vs Lewis, and favored over Holyfield

When your best performance is over underachieving, fat crackhead Tony Tubbs, there has to be a problem with this scenario . . .

Wouldn't his best performances be Berbick, Holmes and Spinks?

[Tantum]

Holmes of 1980 would have whooped Tyson a new one.

[Lexus]

Holmes of 1980 would have whooped Tyson a new one.

You forgot to explain why.

[Tantum]

Lots of reasons...

A) He was the champ, so he wouldn't be taking the fight on 2-3 weeks notice... So he would have been in good shape (210)

B) Holmes had every tool in the book, and if Buster Douglas could beat a "prime" Mike Tyson, Holmes would have stomped the hell out of him.

[Lexus]

Lots of reasons...

A) He was the champ, so he wouldn't be taking the fight on 2-3 weeks notice... So he would have been in good shape (210)

B) Holmes had every tool in the book, and if Buster Douglas could beat a "prime" Mike Tyson, Holmes would have stomped the hell out of him.

The Tyson who fought Buster Douglas wasn't exactly prepared. Even the cornermen didn't take it seriously by not even bring an endswell (spelling). People claim Tyson was in his prime but I think it's pretty obvious he wasn't his real self for that fight. And I am by no means a Tyson nuthugger.

Holmes was actually doing quite well against Tyson before he took a brutal right hand. Why couldn't that have happened against a younger Holmes?