Cleveland Williams vs

[yancey]

Floyd Patterson
Ingemar Johanssen
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier


Primes for all, of course.

What happens?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Patterson gets off the deck to KO Williams.

A fight with Johansson is toss-up material. I'll take the straight right to find its mark quicker than the left hook. Another KO loss.

Marciano, for mine, has more trouble with Williams than many predict. Still butchers him, dices him, & boxes him up for shipping in the end, though. About nine rounds. Marciano possibly off his feet early.

Frazier would've taken him down at some point.

[dempseyfire]

I think he knocks Patterson out. D'Amato steered Floyd away from Cleveland for a reason and he knew his fighter better than we did. Cleveland's handspeed negates Floyd's usual big advantage and he'd have considerable size and reach advantages.

Johansson is 50/50. I hate this cliche but it's truly one of those "whoever lands big first" wins scenarios.

Marciano and Frazier break him down for KO wins around the mid-late rounds, but they could both be hurt and/or dropped early.

[yancey]

I think he knocks Patterson out. D'Amato steered Floyd away from Cleveland for a reason and he knew his fighter better than we did. Cleveland's handspeed negates Floyd's usual big advantage and he'd have considerable size and reach advantages.

Johansson is 50/50. I hate this cliche but it's truly one of those "whoever lands big first" wins scenarios.

Marciano and Frazier break him down for KO wins around the mid-late rounds, but they could both be hurt and/or dropped early.

Agree that he knocks out Floyd.

I think he knocks out Ingo, too.

[Flump]

He has a punchers chance but I think he loses by ko to all of them, Williams lost every time he stepped up to these guy's level.

[dempseyfire]

Lost everytime he stepped up to Liston's level? B/c Patterson was beaten much worse than Cleveland was?

Pre-shooting he forced a draw to the very slick Eddie Machen, knocked out Terrell and IMO deserved the decision in the rematch.

His career post-1964 clearly must be put into context, as he was a guy fighting in a severely depleted physical state, and even then he only lost to top ranked guys (besides O'Halloran when he was beyond washed up in 1971)

[Flump]

Like I said, he has a punchers chance. Drawing with Machen and beating Ernie Terrell doesn't make him a lock against Patterson, who was better than both of those guys.

Patterson proved his mettle when past his best, and without D'Amato picking his challengers carefully, through the 60's and into the 70's, only Liston, Ingo and Ali stopped him, all three better than Williams.

[thehero55]

Cleveland was an underrated puncher, Id give him a 20% chance against Frazier, 30% vs Ingo and 55% vs. Patterson. Dont see him beating Marciano

[dempseyfire]

Like I said, he has a punchers chance. Drawing with Machen and beating Ernie Terrell doesn't make him a lock against Patterson, who was better than both of those guys.

.

I'd make Terrell a solid favorite over Patterson in the mid 60s.

Ingo was better than Williams? In what respect? Cleveland was bigger, faster and a more complete boxer.

Patterson is one of those guys who gets underrated at times but is also overrated by many b/c he was such a fan favorite. He lost fair and square to Ellis and should've lost to Bonavena as well.

[gambler49]

I'd say Marciano & Frazier stop him... And the other 2 are hard to call. However my money would be on Floyd to KO him, but I wouldn't like my bet. And the other one is even tighter, and I can't call it. It's one of them matches where a smart gambler keeps his $ in his pocket on that one. However if u put a revolver to my head id go Bingo.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Like I said, he has a punchers chance. Drawing with Machen and beating Ernie Terrell doesn't make him a lock against Patterson, who was better than both of those guys.

.

I'd make Terrell a solid favorite over Patterson in the mid 60s.

Ingo was better than Williams? In what respect? Cleveland was bigger, faster and a more complete boxer.

Patterson is one of those guys who gets underrated at times but is also overrated by many b/c he was such a fan favorite. He lost fair and square to Ellis and should've lost to Bonavena as well.

He was washed-up against both of those men, & he beat Ellis plain as day in my book. That whole scenario stank, & robbed Patterson of a slice of prestigious history Ali would later claim as his own.

[Flump]

Like I said, he has a punchers chance. Drawing with Machen and beating Ernie Terrell doesn't make him a lock against Patterson, who was better than both of those guys.

.

I'd make Terrell a solid favorite over Patterson in the mid 60s.

Ingo was better than Williams? In what respect? Cleveland was bigger, faster and a more complete boxer.

Patterson is one of those guys who gets underrated at times but is also overrated by many b/c he was such a fan favorite. He lost fair and square to Ellis and should've lost to Bonavena as well.

Maybe, his size, chin and spoiling style would give Patterson problems but that's another story.

Ingo was better in a results respect, one of Williams selling points is his draw v Machen, well Ingo hammered him inside a round, he also ko'd Patterson two wins that are lacking on The Big Cat's resume. Williams may have looked smoother but his results and what I've seen of him to me don't suggest that he was as good as you think IMHO. And you had this one 50/50 yourself.

Patterson was definitely vulnerable but I just don't see Williams as a favourite over him, his reputation seems to be largely based on hurting Liston in the first fight and wacking out a procession of stiffs and a few decent journeymen.

[dempseyfire]

Like I said, he has a punchers chance. Drawing with Machen and beating Ernie Terrell doesn't make him a lock against Patterson, who was better than both of those guys.

.

I'd make Terrell a solid favorite over Patterson in the mid 60s.

Ingo was better than Williams? In what respect? Cleveland was bigger, faster and a more complete boxer.

Patterson is one of those guys who gets underrated at times but is also overrated by many b/c he was such a fan favorite. He lost fair and square to Ellis and should've lost to Bonavena as well.

He was washed-up against both of those men, & he beat Ellis plain as day in my book. That whole scenario stank, & robbed Patterson of a slice of prestigious history Ali would later claim as his own.

Yep, such a 'horrible robbery' that the AP scorecard or any other persons I've ever seen with a win for Floyd scores 4 or more rounds even What is that about? Patterson came on strong in the end but for most of the fight did nothing.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Do you contend Patterson was not significantly past-it at the time of those bouts, too?

[dempseyfire]

Do you contend Patterson was not significantly past-it at the time of those bouts, too?

He was past his prime but significantly past for the Ellis bout I'd say no.