Who beats Tyson in his Prime (before Cus Death)

[Fourstarzzzz]

I know he lost to Douglas, but I think there were many factors involved and it seemed like all of the planets aligned right that night. However, if Cus lived and Tyson did not go mental and beats Douglas, who would have beat him eventually? I think he would have lost eventually to a Holyfield/lewis type but mostly due to age. Thoughts?

[dempseyfire]

Tyson loses to Douglas with Cus alive or not.

Way too many Tyson fans conjure up Cus D'Amato like some magical fairy who via his magic sprinkle dust made Tyson a forever disciplined, sane individual who would never self-destruct. And even that said, Douglas boxed a perfect fight vs Tyson and styles-wise OWNED him that night, regardless of Tyson's personal issues.

[Lackeos]

I think Bowe would've beat Tyson if they fought - he's basically a better version of Douglass. Douglass would probably still beat Tyson. Lennox would still beat Tyson, since he's also basically a better version of Douglass. Holyfield's unbelievable chin would've broke Tyson's spirit just like it really did.

I think Tyson's awesome, but he came from an era that presented a plethora of unfavorable style match-ups.

[gambler49]

Tyson loses to Douglas with Cus alive or not.

Way too many Tyson fans conjure up Cus D'Amato like some magical fairy who via his magic sprinkle dust made Tyson a forever disciplined, sane individual who would never self-destruct. And even that said, Douglas boxed a perfect fight vs Tyson and styles-wise OWNED him that night, regardless of Tyson's personal issues.

BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And u should kno better!
Tyson would never hav lost that fight if he didn't slide so much.
A prime Tyson lics any version of Douglas and then some!
However there where a few fighters I think woulda beat a prime Tyson:
Clay and Foreman for sure.
Louis, Liston, Marciano, Holmes and Frazier beat him most times in my book.

[generic screen name]

There's only one guy Tyson would lose to in his prime. And that's Chuck Norris.

[gambler49]

There's only one guy Tyson would lose to in his prime. And that's Chuck Norris.

On the street Chuck has a good chance... However, if u was taking bets at even money I wanna lump on Tyson.

[greg]

---Rocky Balboa might have a chance...

[generic screen name]

There's only one guy Tyson would lose to in his prime. And that's Chuck Norris.

On the street Chuck has a good chance... However, if u was taking bets at even money I wanna lump on Tyson.

Tyson would get his ass beaten almost as bad as your grammar.

They once made a Chuck Norris toilet paper, but it wouldn't take sh*t from anybody.

[Diamond WEAPON]

James "The Grim Reaper" Roeper and "Malevolent" Marvin Shabazz

[Goodnight, Irene]

I know he lost to Douglas, but I think there were many factors involved and it seemed like all of the planets aligned right that night. However, if Cus lived and Tyson did not go mental and beats Douglas, who would have beat him eventually? I think he would have lost eventually to a Holyfield/lewis type but mostly due to age. Thoughts?

I assume you mean what would happen if he'd mopped up Douglas as expected, & we carry on from there? Well, there's Holyfield --- I believe the fight was already signed at this point, or very near to being so. I am in the minority here, but Tyson, for mine, beats Holyfield if both are at their peak. Holyfield isn't as indestructible as people make out. Bowe? Dangerous man, but that defense brings him unstuck. Tyson lands too much, too early, & takes him out.

Theoretically, if Mike Tyson's prime hadn't ended by anything other than old age, I can see a reign beginning with Spinks in 1988 &, best-case scenario, not ending until he hits Lennox Lewis around, say, 1997-99. That's if Lewis doesn't fight him before then, which he probably would. Lewis didn't really peak until about 1997 or so, & anytime before 1995, he's a shoo-in to get knocked out.

Of course, all of the above is so far out-of-character for Tyson, you may as well ask how well George Foreman would have done had he retained his prime qualities but also possessed the speed of Muhammad Ali. It was never going to happen, & anyone who truly thinks Cus D'Amato's presence would've kept Tyson from going off the rails long-term is frankly delusional.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Douglas beat Tyson in his prime, nobody in the corner changes that. If he managed to win ,Holyfield would have slaughtered him in his next fight.

Bowe & Lewis also would have beat him. And I would have been highly interested to see him fight Mercer.

Edit: Actually thinking about how scared Lewis looked in the first round and a half against a shot Tyson. There is a pretty good chance he doesn't last that long earlier.

[Counter-puncher]

Douglas beat Tyson in his prime, nobody in the corner changes that. If he managed to win ,Holyfield would have slaughtered him in his next fight.

Bowe & Lewis also would have beat him. And I would have been highly interested to see him fight Mercer.

Edit: Actually thinking about how scared Lewis looked in the first round and a half against a shot Tyson. There is a pretty good chance he doesn't last that long earlier.

interesting shout on Mercer

[Ezzard]

So many factors involved in every fight...

Tyson lost in his prime to Douglas and would have been beaten by Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe...

He might have beaten Lewis or Bowe based on his power... He has a decent chance with both of them.

I always assume prime means from early 20s to about early 30s...depends on the fighter some continue to get better with age, and the weight category seems to dictate. if a fighter is in that age range and at their prime fighting weight then you can argue that he'd lost motivation (his own fault) but you can't say he wasn't in his prime.

[Fourstarzzzz]

I believe Cus really did have a huge effect on Tyson. I mean looked what happened after his death....lost to Douglas, problems with wife, goes to jail. He seemed a bit more in control with Cus there.

I think Lewis had the best chance of beating him eventually, but it would have been a UD or SD , not by KO.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Douglas beat Tyson in his prime, nobody in the corner changes that. If he managed to win ,Holyfield would have slaughtered him in his next fight.

Bowe & Lewis also would have beat him. And I would have been highly interested to see him fight Mercer.

Edit: Actually thinking about how scared Lewis looked in the first round and a half against a shot Tyson. There is a pretty good chance he doesn't last that long earlier.

One look at Holyfield having two minutes of life-&-death with Bert Cooper --- started by a single punch --- gives you pause for thought.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Not me, the way he recovered so quickly and was pummeling Cooper with Uppercuts makes me even more confident against Tyson. That's a 100 out of 100 fight for me.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You don't think Tyson would have followed that right (which was more powerful from Tyson than Cooper), with a decent combination or two, as Cooper didn't? Even without the two-fisted power, handspeed, or killer instinct, Cooper still scored a knockdown & even shook Holyfield late in the round again, after Holyfield had come back at him. It was an embarrassing night for the champ, in spite of dominating most of the fight.

Tyson was a million times more dangerous than Cooper ever was.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I believe Cus really did have a huge effect on Tyson. I mean looked what happened after his death....lost to Douglas, problems with wife, goes to jail. He seemed a bit more in control with Cus there.

I think Lewis had the best chance of beating him eventually, but it would have been a UD or SD , not by KO.

Tyson was twenty years old when D'Amato died. He wasn't champ. He wasn't famous. He wasn't ridiculously wealthy. He didn't have that gold-digging whore of a wife.

Do you think, just maybe, these things came with a bit of age & career progression, rather than simply as a result of D'Amato's death?

[man]

very difficult question imo, because tyson had this crazy
start. who had both the nerves and the chin to endure the
initial pressure, had a chance. but early tyson had a very
good defense - he was not easy to hit.

i think prime ali had both the chin and the precision to
beat him and maybe take him down in later rounds.

prime joe louis (to be pretty unbeatable entity) would have
weathered him down later on ...

prime foreman and marciano would have turned into weird
wars not lasting too long and going either way ...

regarding douglas. tyson had him down earlier. given the
life style and overconfidence of mike at that time i cannot
see a prime tyson, focused and disciplined, lose this one.

i think prime holyfield would have given every ATG a very
hard time ... but i think it was important in their bout that
mike's head and upper body very less flexible and thus left
him an easier target than in his early days ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf1rO3ab ... re=related

watch the ten seconds between 1:26 and 1:36, this is a very,
very fast heavyweight. plus a puncher, a really rare combination
in my eyes. once he lost this quality he was ... just a puncher.

[man]

reminds me to rewatch tyson holy I, i remember when evander
got staggered in the first seconds, everybody was "the same
procedure as every time" ... but then he refused to back up ...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You don't think Tyson would have followed that right (which was more powerful from Tyson than Cooper), with a decent combination or two, as Cooper didn't? Even without the two-fisted power, handspeed, or killer instinct, Cooper still scored a knockdown & even shook Holyfield late in the round again, after Holyfield had come back at him. It was an embarrassing night for the champ, in spite of dominating most of the fight.

Tyson was a million times more dangerous than Cooper ever was.

I love that fight, I didn't find anything embarrassing about it. Tyson was certainly superior to Cooper, Holyfield was superior to both of them. I don't know that Mike ever catches him like that. It's certainly worth noting that Evander was preparing to fight Mike and Tyson pulled out. It's easy to have a lapse in concentration.

The real problem for Mike was Evander was the stronger man. He would always be able to push Tyson back and at that point Mike is pretty useless.

I don't think any Heavyweight in history has a good chance of stopping a prime Holyfield. Nothing is impossible, but that's damn close to it.

[dempseyfire]

I believe Cus really did have a huge effect on Tyson. I mean looked what happened after his death....lost to Douglas, problems with wife, goes to jail. He seemed a bit more in control with Cus there.

I think Lewis had the best chance of beating him eventually, but it would have been a UD or SD , not by KO.

What happened after Cus died?

Tyson won his next 26 fights, became the youngest HW titleholder ever, and unified the division.

Yep, he was all downhill after that.

And "problems with his wife" is now something D'Amato could've corrected? Was he a marriage counselor on the sly?

[Goodnight, Irene]

You don't think Tyson would have followed that right (which was more powerful from Tyson than Cooper), with a decent combination or two, as Cooper didn't? Even without the two-fisted power, handspeed, or killer instinct, Cooper still scored a knockdown & even shook Holyfield late in the round again, after Holyfield had come back at him. It was an embarrassing night for the champ, in spite of dominating most of the fight.

Tyson was a million times more dangerous than Cooper ever was.

I love that fight, I didn't find anything embarrassing about it. Tyson was certainly superior to Cooper, Holyfield was superior to both of them. I don't know that Mike ever catches him like that. It's certainly worth noting that Evander was preparing to fight Mike and Tyson pulled out. It's easy to have a lapse in concentration.

The real problem for Mike was Evander was the stronger man. He would always be able to push Tyson back and at that point Mike is pretty useless.

I don't think any Heavyweight in history has a good chance of stopping a prime Holyfield. Nothing is impossible, but that's damn close to it.

Bert Cooper took the fight on one weeks' notice. It's fair to say that door swings both ways. The real problem for Holyfield is the peak Tyson was not only quicker than he was, but he bolstered his enormous power with that speed, & any man as hittable as Holyfield was is in deep with that Tyson. I think it's fortunate for Holyfield he never found out, personally. I will admit to being in a minority on that one, though.

I think Foreman & Liston absolutely savage Holyfield, but there'd be no shame in that if they did.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You don't think Tyson would have followed that right (which was more powerful from Tyson than Cooper), with a decent combination or two, as Cooper didn't? Even without the two-fisted power, handspeed, or killer instinct, Cooper still scored a knockdown & even shook Holyfield late in the round again, after Holyfield had come back at him. It was an embarrassing night for the champ, in spite of dominating most of the fight.

Tyson was a million times more dangerous than Cooper ever was.

I love that fight, I didn't find anything embarrassing about it. Tyson was certainly superior to Cooper, Holyfield was superior to both of them. I don't know that Mike ever catches him like that. It's certainly worth noting that Evander was preparing to fight Mike and Tyson pulled out. It's easy to have a lapse in concentration.

The real problem for Mike was Evander was the stronger man. He would always be able to push Tyson back and at that point Mike is pretty useless.

I don't think any Heavyweight in history has a good chance of stopping a prime Holyfield. Nothing is impossible, but that's damn close to it.

Bert Cooper took the fight on one weeks' notice. It's fair to say that door swings both ways. The real problem for Holyfield is the peak Tyson was not only quicker than he was, but he bolstered his enormous power with that speed, & any man as hittable as Holyfield was is in deep with that Tyson. I think it's fortunate for Holyfield he never found out, personally. I will admit to being in a minority on that one, though.

I think Foreman & Liston absolutely savage Holyfield, but there'd be no shame in that if they did.

Tyson never believed he could beat Holyfield, not for a second in his life. Listen to him talk about him, it's hero worship. It's a shame they never met in their primes. Holyfield did all he could to make it happen, but King ducked it like a 4 foot door.

We've been down the road with holyfield/Foreman more than enough at this point. I pick Liston over Evander, but by decision.

[Jaywheel]

To me, prime Tyson, if we want to compare with other greats, is the one that did beat and destroyed other fighters considered greats, a la Holmes and Spinks.

That version of Tyson KO's any version of Lewis, has a good chance of beating Frazier if he gets the job done early, could very well avoid Foreman's bombs in a way that Frazier couldn't and also spark him, and destroys Patterson very badly. I also think he gets the job done against any version of Holmes, I knom I am in the minority here.

He probably loses to Ali. Don't think that Tyson could put him down for the count early. Loses to prime Louis I think. Has a very hard time with Liston's jab has I stated in the other thread.
If Golota gave hell to Bowe the way he did, prime Tyson sparks him. Wonder how Big Daddy would feel after a couple of right to the body...

Prime Tyson-Holyfield is a puzzle for me. I see the argument of the bully bullied but I think that if they fought 10 times during Tyson's prime (meaning they would have fought each other every other week D ), Tyson wins 3-4 of them for sure. He avoided punches better, was faster, threw better combinations. Holyfield went life and death with fighters far less dangerous than prime Tyson.