Flaws in Great Fighters

[jrc26]

Who do you all think were great fighters who had an absolutely obvious flaw and overcame it. And by overcame it, I do not mean fixed the flaw, but excelled while still having it as a handicap. The flaw could be technical, physical, or lack of ability/drive/motivation.

Roy Jones Jr-had absolutely NO jab and the ones he did throw he wasn't trying to land. I can't think of another fighter who achieved more with no jab.

Joe Frazier-fought essentially with one eye from the mid 60's and on.

Nazeem Hamed-achieved fame and millions of dollars with many flaws, the biggest being lack of skill. The poster boy for HBO marketing.

Michael Spinks-a trainers nightmare when it comes to technique. He had the worst footwork I have ever seen in a championship calibur fighter and if you didn't know better you might swear he was drunk in the ring.

[Expug]

Harry Greb and Gypsy Joe Harris both fought with one good eye.
Eugene Criqui reconstructed jaw.
Eugene Harrison was deaf.

[palooka]

Robert Harper could hardly see from his left eye (that'd had surgery when he was a child).
John Oxenham boxed with a thin skull that was cruelly exposed by Bruce Scott.

[yancey]

Muhammad Ali --- mouth.

[dempseyfire]

It's a myth Roy didn't have a jab. Sure he'd lead with hooks a lot and he didn't employ it to set everything up like most conventional fighters but he still fired more than enough jabs throughout his career. He owned Ruiz with the left jab.

[man]

rjj thought the jab was a dangerous punch leaving
you open, that is why he didn't throw it IMO ... had
nothing to do with him not being able to ...

[man]

i think wlad is a good display of overcoming a weakness ...

[jrc26]

It's a myth Roy didn't have a jab. Sure he'd lead with hooks a lot and he didn't employ it to set everything up like most conventional fighters but he still fired more than enough jabs throughout his career. He owned Ruiz with the left jab.

Fair enough, but I guess I didn't word it correctly. Obviously a talented fighter like RJJ HAD a jab. And yes he did own Ruiz with that jab. However, the Ruiz fight was the exception in his career. I guess the way I should have worded it was: show me a fighter who won more fights than RJJ while having thrown less jabs than his opponent.

I am making this statistic up, but I am going to say the fighter who throws/lands more jabs in a fight probably wins 75% of the time? Maybe higher? I would love to see the number of fights where Roy threw more jabs than his opponent. I am guessing not many. So while I agree with you Dempsey, he certainly had one, he was flawed in the sense that he didn't use it often. Most of the jabs he threw were half-assed just so he could jump in with the hook.

So maybe he isn't the best example for my own topic, but he came to mind right away.

[Panzerfaust]

Nel Tarleton had only one functional lounge.

[alexpaterson]

Ali when he was younger was open for the left hook all the time. Benitez's chin perhaps.

[Panzerfaust]

What was wrong with his other lounges?

He contracted tb at age two, wich ruined one of his lounges

[jrc26]

Ali when he was younger was open for the left hook all the time. Benitez's chin perhaps.

I don't think that was specific to when he was younger. Joe Frazier hit him with about 100 over the trilogy. Shavers and Lyle I believe both hammered him with hooks. Fortunately, and unfortunately, Ali could take a punch with the best of them.

You are right though. It wasn't often you saw Ali's right glove up near his cheek.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Spinks footwork was awkward, but I wouldn't call it bad. He used his jab and movement to beat Qawi and he wasn't at a disadvantage against fighters that could move themselves I have to disagree with that one pretty adamantly.

Felix Trinidad had much poorer footwork.

[jrc26]

Spinks footwork was awkward, but I wouldn't call it bad. He used his jab and movement to beat Qawi and he wasn't at a disadvantage against fighters that could move themselves I have to disagree with that one pretty adamantly.

Felix Trinidad had much poorer footwork.

I will defer to you about Spinks because honestly I have only seen his heavyweight fights and 1-2 of his light-heavyweight fights, so it is possible his footwork suffered a bit more as he went up in weight and was trying to avoid Holmes, Tyson, and Cooney's big punches.

My main source for my opinion is the 2nd Holmes fight. He seems to nearly go down several times in the fight from punches he blocks, simply because he is off balance. His awkwardness may lend to making it look worse than it is though.

Did you notice a difference in his footwork between his LHW and HW fights?

[iamasadlittleboy]

Adameks footwork is dire
Calzaghe's slaps later in his career
Hatton's defence
Ali had loads of obvious flaws, his clinching (against Frazier), his jab was poor, hands down fighting style
Tyson's stamina

[crusader]

Foreman had terrible technique
JCC was very slow

[p4p1]

Who do you all think were great fighters who had an absolutely obvious flaw and overcame it. And by overcame it, I do not mean fixed the flaw, but excelled while still having it as a handicap. The flaw could be technical, physical, or lack of ability/drive/motivation.

Roy Jones Jr-had absolutely NO jab and the ones he did throw he wasn't trying to land. I can't think of another fighter who achieved more with no jab.

Joe Frazier-fought essentially with one eye from the mid 60's and on.

Nazeem Hamed-achieved fame and millions of dollars with many flaws, the biggest being lack of skill. The poster boy for HBO marketing.

Michael Spinks-a trainers nightmare when it comes to technique. He had the worst footwork I have ever seen in a championship calibur fighter and if you didn't know better you might swear he was drunk in the ring.

watch a young hamed beffore he thought he could bomb everyone out with one punch while he had his hands down all the time he defiantly had skill

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Spinks footwork was awkward, but I wouldn't call it bad. He used his jab and movement to beat Qawi and he wasn't at a disadvantage against fighters that could move themselves I have to disagree with that one pretty adamantly.

Felix Trinidad had much poorer footwork.

I will defer to you about Spinks because honestly I have only seen his heavyweight fights and 1-2 of his light-heavyweight fights, so it is possible his footwork suffered a bit more as he went up in weight and was trying to avoid Holmes, Tyson, and Cooney's big punches.

My main source for my opinion is the 2nd Holmes fight. He seems to nearly go down several times in the fight from punches he blocks, simply because he is off balance. His awkwardness may lend to making it look worse than it is though.

Did you notice a difference in his footwork between his LHW and HW fights?

Absolutely, part of that was avoiding exchanges with bigger punchers. But another part is that his knees were in bad shape.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Tyson & delaHoya suffered from a terrible ring IQ.

[Goodnight, Irene]

i think wlad is a good display of overcoming a weakness ...

Yes, & that weakness was usually staring at him from across the ring, panting like a dog & testing the limits of XXL trunks.

[iamasadlittleboy]

Adameks footwork is dire
Calzaghe's slaps later in his career
Hatton's defence
Ali had loads of obvious flaws, his clinching (against Frazier), his jab was poor, hands down fighting style
Tyson's stamina

If we're talking a prime form of Mike, then this is a flawed comment.

Riddick Bowe: poor defense

A prime mike arguably never really had it tested, Smiths and Tubbs hardly put up a fight between them

[Jpreisser]

James Toney. He had an incredible amount of ability;a smart jab,accurate punches,wonderful chin,great counterpunching,good power,intelligent inside the ring,very calm and relaxed,great defense(one of the best I have seen when his back was against the ropes),good punching technique,and good handspeed. For all of those attributes though he just couldn`t keep his fat ass away from food. If he could have maintained focus and had a good diet and trained hard aaand kept his weight steady,then I just think he would have enhanced his legacy. Imagine if he would have stayed around 168 or 175. He could have fought a number of fighters that would have been very intriguing,like Calzaghe,Hopkins,Dawson,Tarver,Johnson,rematch with Jones Jr.,Adamek,etc. Hell even if he moved up to Cruiserweight in this hypothetical world I speak of later in his career I would have rather have seen an aging Toney fight a Steve Cunningham,O`Neil Bell,or Jean Marc Mormeck then Sam Peter and John Ruiz.

Also Ricky Hatton-Changing his style into a more boring,less aggressive style with less emphasize on bodypunching; his weight gaining; his ability to become flustered; lack of a jab

Kostya Tszyu-Posing after combinations wich left him open;almost strictly a head-hunter;injuries

[tanibanana]

James Toney. He had an incredible amount of ability;a smart jab,accurate punches,wonderful chin,great counterpunching,good power,intelligent inside the ring,very calm and relaxed,great defense(one of the best I have seen when his back was against the ropes),good punching technique,and good handspeed. For all of those attributes though he just couldn`t keep his fat ass away from food. If he could have maintained focus and had a good diet and trained hard aaand kept his weight steady,then I just think he would have enhanced his legacy. Imagine if he would have stayed around 168 or 175. He could have fought a number of fighters that would have been very intriguing,like Calzaghe,Hopkins,Dawson,Tarver,Johnson,rematch with Jones Jr.,Adamek,etc. Hell even if he moved up to Cruiserweight in this hypothetical world I speak of later in his career I would have rather have seen an aging Toney fight a Steve Cunningham,O`Neil Bell,or Jean Marc Mormeck then Sam Peter and John Ruiz.

Also Ricky Hatton-Changing his style into a more boring,less aggressive style with less emphasize on bodypunching; his weight gaining; his ability to become flustered; lack of a jab

Kostya Tszyu-Posing after combinations wich left him open;almost strictly a head-hunter;injuries

Imagine Toney w/ discipline like Marquez, B-hop.. and trains like Mayweather, Pacquiao..

[Bricks]

Who do you all think were great fighters who had an absolutely obvious flaw and overcame it. And by overcame it, I do not mean fixed the flaw, but excelled while still having it as a handicap. The flaw could be technical, physical, or lack of ability/drive/motivation.

Roy Jones Jr-had absolutely NO jab and the ones he did throw he wasn't trying to land. I can't think of another fighter who achieved more with no jab.

Joe Frazier-fought essentially with one eye from the mid 60's and on.

Nazeem Hamed-achieved fame and millions of dollars with many flaws, the biggest being lack of skill. The poster boy for HBO marketing.

Michael Spinks-a trainers nightmare when it comes to technique. He had the worst footwork I have ever seen in a championship calibur fighter and if you didn't know better you might swear he was drunk in the ring.

Well I think a lot of what makes great fighters great, is their ability to do it their own way.

The armchair critics could always say Ali held his left hand too low, Roy Jones led with his jab and had his hands down, James Toney had his left too low,Aaron Pryor jumped into his punches,Frazier only had a left hand...etc etc

[alexpaterson]

Toney's slow feet