British middleweight division.

leforge · Post by **leforge** » 08 Apr 2005, 05:58

After Scott Dann next defence who should he fight?

Possible contenders are

GAry Lockett
Wayne Elcock

On the subject of Gary lockett how good is he? I only saw a couple of his last fights.

J · Post by J » 08 Apr 2005, 06:01

i pick Dann ot beat anoyo f em to be honest, i think he would give eastman a run for his money now personally.

best kept boxing secret in britain is Scott.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Apr 2005, 06:03

I've not seen him fight for a while, but I hear from reports he's come on leaps and bounds. He's certainly a very strong looking middleweight, and he was pretty inexperienced when he fought Eastman too. Needs to get some good opposition now.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 08 Apr 2005, 06:24

Agree with the two posts, still not sure if he would beat Eastman now - but he would give him a run.

It looks like Dann's power has come on also (destroyed Alan Jones) and that might be a problem for Elcock. I too would tip him over both, but I think both are very intriguing. If Elcock can take Dann's power then he could be in for trouble - similarly if Lockett gets going and starts connecting then Lockett has the power to hurt Dann.

Another fighter who might be in the Middleweight mix who I would actually tip to beat Dann is Richard Williams.

The Middleweight devision could be hotting up.

mickeybeard · Post by **mickeybeard** » 08 Apr 2005, 06:33

Dann/Elcock/Lockett would be an interesting little trilogy - they all hit hard enough to hurt each other. I'd back Scott to win both, because he seems so much more controlled these days. He used to be too eager & get caught. The win against Bendall was an almost punch perfect example of how to break your man down.

I don't know if anyone else at the fight got the same impression, but against Jones, just the way Scott came out of his corner made me think 'he's going to look to take this fella out here'. Seemed like Scott weighed him up for two rounds, figured out Jones couldn't hurt him and levelled the bloke.

steve richards · Post by **steve richards** » 08 Apr 2005, 07:02

leforge wrote:After Scott Dann next defence who should he fight?

Possible contenders are

GAry Lockett
Wayne Elcock

On the subject of Gary lockett how good is he? I only saw a couple of his last fights.

Lockett is good when he's landing the big shots, he's been lucky with a few dubious results in the past couple of years, he pulled out vs Elcock last year, that i have to say left a sour taste in alot of peoples mouths, Scott Dann is a good fighter and in the last couple of years he has come on really well, when he's hitting people he seems ok, when he gets put under pressure he's way to open, i'd have to put Elcock as a favourite.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 08 Apr 2005, 07:35

Lockett and Elcock should fight each other. It was irritating to see Lockett jumping out his seat at ringside that night, after seeing fans post here about how they had been fucked over on tickets. Left a bitter taste for SN and later Lockett (when he blatantly looked fit on TV).

They should fight an eliminator for a shot at Dann, would be a really good fight. A win on TV against a big puncher like Lockett would rise Elcock's stock, while a win for Lockett would redeem some of his status (what he was promised to be). High stakes matchup.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 09 Apr 2005, 07:37

Manos de Oro wrote:Lockett and Elcock should fight each other. It was irritating to see Lockett jumping out his seat at ringside that night, after seeing fans post here about how they had been fucked over on tickets. Left a bitter taste for SN and later Lockett (when he blatantly looked fit on TV).

They should fight an eliminator for a shot at Dann, would be a really good fight. A win on TV against a big puncher like Lockett would rise Elcock's stock, while a win for Lockett would redeem some of his status (what he was promised to be). High stakes matchup.

Elcock has spent too much time waiting around for Lockett- - f*ck him.

On the form Elcock showed Thursday he is a match for any of them.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 11 Apr 2005, 12:27

I wouild like to See Richard Williams in with Dann.

Richard looks very strong at middle and his power is good as well.

Skillwise - no contest.

Good fight for Richard I think - but he needs to get back in there soon.

kevo · Post by **kevo** » 11 Apr 2005, 12:47

whats happened to Richard Williams? Havn't heard anything of him for ages

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 11 Apr 2005, 12:54

He won a comeback fight at middleweight towards the end of last year but no word since.

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 11 Apr 2005, 13:05

I've been beating the drum for Dann-Lockett for the British title for a while now. But it looks to no avail. Forget Lockett pulling out on Elcock. That was just leading to WBU nonsense.

What was more revealing to me was Lockett pulling out of a British title eliminator against Allan Gray. He would probably have found the punches to beat Gray and therefore be in a prime position to challenge Dann.

Dann-Lockett would a bruising contest and worthy of the British Middleweight title IMO.

Elcock is still in the picture with his latest win and now he's with Dave Bradley I would have thought a match would be easy to make with Dann at Plymouth Pavilions. Defence number three for the Lonsdale belt outright (assuming Dann gets past Andy Halder).

However, I agree with those who say Richard Williams would whip the lot of them. It's about time he came back and got involved in this middleweight scene. Surely a British title must be tempting for a good guy like Richard.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 12 Apr 2005, 08:46

Close enough.

:P

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 14 Apr 2005, 09:46

THEBUTCH wrote:I've been beating the drum for Dann-Lockett for the British title for a while now. But it looks to no avail. Forget Lockett pulling out on Elcock. That was just leading to WBU nonsense.

What was more revealing to me was Lockett pulling out of a British title eliminator against Allan Gray. He would probably have found the punches to beat Gray and therefore be in a prime position to challenge Dann.

Dann-Lockett would a bruising contest and worthy of the British Middleweight title IMO.

Elcock is still in the picture with his latest win and now he's with Dave Bradley I would have thought a match would be easy to make with Dann at Plymouth Pavilions. Defence number three for the Lonsdale belt outright (assuming Dann gets past Andy Halder).

However, I agree with those who say Richard Williams would whip the lot of them. It's about time he came back and got involved in this middleweight scene. Surely a British title must be tempting for a good guy like Richard.

I agree Richard Williams is equipped to beat them all. Just hope he gets back in there soon and keeps the faith!

He said he was due to appear on the bravo bill until the last week or so - not injury related - just how it went - hope he gets back out there sooner rather than later!.

I am not a fan of Sports Networks - but I wonder if Matchroom supposedly cutting back will make someof the guys join SN?.

Good fights to be made if they do!.

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 14 Apr 2005, 11:34

Interesting thought, DG.

I'm firmly of the opinion that Matchroom have not handled Richard Williams' career that well, much in the same way the I think Sportsnetwork have not handled Wayne Alexander's career very well either.

Both have enormous attributes (oo-er!) and should have been more productive in boxing. I don't think either of them needs too much protection and both appear to have a willingness to prove themselves against good opposition.

Another pity is, they probably won't face each other either :(

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 14 Apr 2005, 13:14

THEBUTCH wrote:Interesting thought, DG.

I'm firmly of the opinion that Matchroom have not handled Richard Williams' career that well, much in the same way the I think Sportsnetwork have not handled Wayne Alexander's career very well either.

Both have enormous attributes (oo-er!) and should have been more productive in boxing. I don't think either of them needs too much protection and both appear to have a willingness to prove themselves against good opposition.

Another pity is, they probably won't face each other either :(

As much as I like Matchroom. I also think RW should have been let loose before the Martinez fight ( clash of styles ).

I just think SN make more money for their fighter and exposure is also greather than Matchrooms Offering.

I have heard Barry Hearn is loyal to hids foghters and i am sure he is - but the opportunites were not given att he right time by Barry hearn.

I still think RW can progress further - but not sure about Matchrooms commitment to Boxing!

Hope RW gets in the ring soon - maybe on the Harrison Vs Brodie fight ?.

Would be good to see him back.

Williams Beats Dann I think.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 14 Apr 2005, 13:38

THEBUTCH wrote:Interesting thought, DG.

I'm firmly of the opinion that Matchroom have not handled Richard Williams' career that well, much in the same way the I think Sportsnetwork have not handled Wayne Alexander's career very well either.

Both have enormous attributes (oo-er!) and should have been more productive in boxing. I don't think either of them needs too much protection and both appear to have a willingness to prove themselves against good opposition.

Another pity is, they probably won't face each other either :(

Not sure I agree the Butch, Richard was going some serious places after he won the Commonwealth and then IBO title - he really did blow it by losing to Martinez, and then losing to him almost immediately in equally as bad a fashion in return.

Unlike Wayne Alexander, who was Europan champion, lost to Harry Simon in a no-lose situation but generally kept inactive despite him never losing the British or European belts in the ring.

Williams I think was given a fair crack with Matchroom but lost out when he lost to Martinez - perhaps they should have been more supportive after, but I think he might have been dropped by other companies because he was then living in the "who needs him" club.

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 14 Apr 2005, 13:52

In my opinion that's selling Williams a bit short.

Losing to Martinez was no career ending road block. After polishing off Adrian Stone and Richard twice I haven't noticed him being invited back here again (unless you call him being matched with Steve Roberts. That's until Steve saw the light and decided otherwise).

You've hit the nail on the head when you mention the IBO title, because as soon as he boxed and won that belt he'd hit the end of the line. Several defences of the belt, build the bank balance and endless talk of landing a big fight. Just see Jawaid Khaliqs career for proof of my argument. He hasn't "blown it" yet and where has it got him?

Richard Williams is worth so much more than this. If they'd done right by him, they would have kept the commonwealth and kept moving towards more authentic titles. Ok, chances are had he got the chance to box for one of the big3 he may have come up short, but for me, that's more of an achievement than holding a minor world title.

With Alexander, the moment Warren got Wayne to relinquish the EBU title it went down hill. Again, Alexander is worth more than this in my opinion.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 14 Apr 2005, 15:07

I am definately selling Williams short, but matchroom were at fault for selling Williams to highly. I agree had he not lost and fought for a geniune world title he could have easily gone back to domestic level.

However, he was being touted as some geniune world class fighter (as Jawaid has). However, he got beaten up by a fighter who, on paper, he shouldn't have lost too. However, Sky (not Williams or Hearn) hyped this loss as some illness and that it was a one off - no it wasn't.

Martinez is a very good fighter no doubt, and he could very well beat the best Light Middles. However, thats was the hype surrounding Williams and he came up someway short. It was the SECOND loss that was crucial, that categorically showed it was no fluke and that his ranking was hype more than substance.

Do we blame Matchroom for over hyping a fighter? I don't, that what I think is their job - but when he shows that he is hype it will be hard for him to come back.

I personally think the IBO title was a good route for Williams - it was winning that belt that got him a world ranking as he beat Shannon Taylor who was world ranked. It was that fight that got us thinking that Williams could be at least competitive in geniune world class.

It was the same for Jawaid Khaliq, his best win came against the world ranked (although that was a little kind) Willy Wise. These belts can be used as stepping stones if used effectively.

However, for Williams it was the two defeats that said to me at least, "oh he has been overhyped - he wasn't competitive vs Martinez so he is not going to be competitive vs Oscar or Winky". It always seems to be that second defeat at the same level that it crucial. Look at Francesco Bojado now, when is the last time he fought. He was only 19-20 but appears to be finished because he narrowly lost to the world class Leija. Nobody is mentioning him.

James Hare similarly looks to have been forgotton about - the excuse of "overworked" in 2003 couldn't be applied when he lost to Barnes. Now looks to have been forgotton about - again he was ranked 4th by the IBF seemingly one fight away from a geniune world title fight (in which some folk gave him a chance). It now looks like he is overhyped.

It is very hard (and will be) for these fighters to prove to the public they can comeback and do well - and will the public come too see them try after being "duped" by the promoter that these are world class.

Khaliq and Alexander are both mysteries to me. Although, I suspect Khaliq's heart is no longer in the game.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 15 Apr 2005, 09:49

Martines has only lost to Margotito.

Martinez wold give DLH a run for his money m DLH is Static in movement and feet but just has fast hands.

Bottom line is RW is ntfinished and he just lost t a world class fighter.

Maybe middle will suit hom better as he is not really small is he !

Good luck to him!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 Apr 2005, 10:50

stujones wrote:I am definately selling Williams short, but matchroom were at fault for selling Williams to highly. I agree had he not lost and fought for a geniune world title he could have easily gone back to domestic level.

However, he was being touted as some geniune world class fighter (as Jawaid has). However, he got beaten up by a fighter who, on paper, he shouldn't have lost too. However, Sky (not Williams or Hearn) hyped this loss as some illness and that it was a one off - no it wasn't.

Martinez is a very good fighter no doubt, and he could very well beat the best Light Middles. However, thats was the hype surrounding Williams and he came up someway short. It was the SECOND loss that was crucial, that categorically showed it was no fluke and that his ranking was hype more than substance.

Do we blame Matchroom for over hyping a fighter? I don't, that what I think is their job - but when he shows that he is hype it will be hard for him to come back.

I personally think the IBO title was a good route for Williams - it was winning that belt that got him a world ranking as he beat Shannon Taylor who was world ranked. It was that fight that got us thinking that Williams could be at least competitive in geniune world class.

It was the same for Jawaid Khaliq, his best win came against the world ranked (although that was a little kind) Willy Wise. These belts can be used as stepping stones if used effectively.

However, for Williams it was the two defeats that said to me at least, "oh he has been overhyped - he wasn't competitive vs Martinez so he is not going to be competitive vs Oscar or Winky". It always seems to be that second defeat at the same level that it crucial. Look at Francesco Bojado now, when is the last time he fought. He was only 19-20 but appears to be finished because he narrowly lost to the world class Leija. Nobody is mentioning him.

James Hare similarly looks to have been forgotton about - the excuse of "overworked" in 2003 couldn't be applied when he lost to Barnes. Now looks to have been forgotton about - again he was ranked 4th by the IBF seemingly one fight away from a geniune world title fight (in which some folk gave him a chance). It now looks like he is overhyped.

It is very hard (and will be) for these fighters to prove to the public they can comeback and do well - and will the public come too see them try after being "duped" by the promoter that these are world class.

Khaliq and Alexander are both mysteries to me. Although, I suspect Khaliq's heart is no longer in the game.

Yes, I agree, it's difficult for these fighters once they have a couple of losses in major crossroads fights. The confidence must drain out of them, and then the opportunities dry up, motivation may be lacking, and periods of inactivity blunt the edges.

I think also part of the problem is the lack of experience of British fighters when it comes to taking on real difficult opponents, it's why going to the states can really make a fighter, and certainly has done in the past. Nigel Benn was battering the shit out of what he himself called 'mexican roadsweepers' this did wonders for his publicity and earning power, but not his technique, and when he ran into Watson, he got botty-fucked.

Benn decided it was time for a change. Instead of jumping back in immediately with another world class operator like Watson, he changed his setup, got some tough sparring in, and got out of his routine, it changed his outlook, his mindset, his technical prowess, and ultimately his whole career. Would he have beaten Doug DeWitt without doing so? Possibly, but he may never have gotten the shot, because if he had fought a rematch with Watson he would have got larruped again.

Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing, and making the right decisions isn't easy when you don't know the outcome, but I do think there's a lot of confidence to be gained from changing familiar surroundings.

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 15 Apr 2005, 12:51

By boxing several times for the IBO title I have no doubt Williams earned some fair paydays. But I'm a fan of boxing and a supporter of Williams, so my argument will, most of the time, centre around results that can be measured. Boxers going for duff world titles is not the best measuring stick in my opinion.

Williams beating Taylor would have made excactly the same impact had it been for Richard's Commonwealth title, and in terms of being pushed forward for more authentic titles, even more so. Hearns more often than not decides not to send his boxers down this path (his job is to make his guys as much money as possible, but as pointed out earlier I'm talking about Williams achieving more out of boxing than a poxy IBO belt and bank balance).

Losing to Martinez is no disgrace and not proof that Williams' can't hack it in world class. So what if he loses to the two examples you give. De La Hoya and Wright are formidable. Just because he might lose to them it's not game over. It's not pointless him carrying on. There's a hundred matches to be made (especially as he can do middle or light middle).

In the first fight Richard had Martinez down twice, so had his moments. Sergio has Richard's number. That doesn't mean Richard can't beat other quality boxers. Williams' corner against Martinez should also should some of the blame for the second defeat. Before the end Richard sat on his stool in between rounds and asked with despair "what can I do?" and got sod all good advice back. But like I say, Martinez has his number and fair play to him. Richard should also be given credit for going back in with Sergio after their first defeat. And another thing, Martinez seemingly came from no where, but closer inspection shows his was a very tough opponent so you have to give Williams due respect when losing to such a foe.

If Williams is low in confidence now it's also part of Hearn's job to rehabilitate him. I'm sure there's reasons to be given, but I'm not see much evidence of this. Williams has a lot to offer, is great to watch and should not be having his talent going to waste. From where I'm sitting Hearn looks guilty of this.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 15 Apr 2005, 20:46

Good point on the Commonwealth title for Taylor vs Williams. However, it does appear that the lure of a world title (albeit poor version) brings more to the table especially when a fighter (like Taylor) is starting the slippary slope and probably knows deep down he cannot a geniune one.

Apart from N'dou - when is the last time you have seen a non British fighter (who is ranked independentedly somewhere in the top 25) CHALLENGE a Brit for the Commowealth belt. Not for years.

I don't think Taylor would have come if it was just the Commonwealth belt at stake. The reward (for him) is minimal and the risk is great.

You don't here Eric Lucas or Otis Grant calling out Carl Froch do you.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 18 Apr 2005, 10:25

I looked up Martinez the moment it was announced he rwopuld be fighting RW and his amatuer record was 44-0 and included several World Cups.

Came frim nowhere - but he was very good.

RW lost to 1 man - big deal - he is still the best we have at moment if at Lt Middle or Top 2 Middleweight!

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 18 Apr 2005, 11:07

And Williams has overcome disappointing setbacks before. With all due respect to Michael Alexander, when Richard lost to him he came back and dominated a string of worthy opponents.

What he needs is to get his career back on the conventional title track ASAP because he hasn't got time to waste and I feel Barry Hearns IS wasting it.

DG. can't be far off with his rating of Richard, but getting back to the British title picture, us fans should be getting the chance to who's the best for ourselves. Some great matches to be made.....let's see them I say!

British middleweight division.

British middleweight division.

Re: British middleweight division.