Obviously, Sonny Liston's 1-defense title reign is an all-time great case of bad timing--runing into Clay/Ali at that stage in his career right after the Patterson fights. The question is, what would his chances have been to be a long-reigning, dominant champ if he'd come along at some other time?
A few eras to consider--
Late teens and Twenties: Could he have handled Dempsey, if so, would Tunney have had a chance to unseat him?
Post Joe Louis: Assuming (though you may want to argue the point) that Louis at his best would have beaten Liston, coud Sonny have ruled through the age of Charles and Walcott? How would he have fared aginst Marciano, if he was still on top when Rocky came along?
1970s: If Liston had been an up and comer towards the end of Ali's career, what would his place among the fighters have that time been? Personally, I think this time brings up some of the most intriguing match-ups.
How about the 80s?--vs. Holmes, early Tyson....90s?--Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis...Today?
How Would Liston Have Fared in a Different Era?
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
He could have been dominant if he´d gotten a title shot in 58 or 59 instead of 62 when he was already at least in his mid 30s.
Liston in terms of head to head matchups is right up there with the elite of the elite in my opinion. 1920s he beats Dempsey but Tunney would have a chance to outbox him. More interesting matchups for me during this period would be Liston vs the other top black fighters of the 20s-Willis and Godfrey . . those would have been some fights!!
1930s and 40s-Only guys I can see beating him are Louis and Jersey Joe. Charles-Liston would have been a hell of a fight too, as well as a scrap with a prime Elmer Ray (which I see Liston winning in a Cleveland Williams type slugfest).
70s-Really the only guys I see with a chance of beating him in the golden age are Young and Holmes. He´d outslug all of the good boxer punchers (Quarry, Lyle (thats a great fight), Shavers, Norton) although if Frazier could survive the early going he could have a chance vs Liston. I see Liston outboxing Foreman to a decision loss in a great fight, could be a KO win for either man though if they decide to open up.
80s-Don´t see Liston having trouble with anyone save Holmes, who could beat Liston by decision but that matchup is too tough to call a winner. He beats Tyson . . .KO by the 6th round.
90s-Liston-Bowe would be a war but Bowe never showed he could handle a puncher with the skill of Liston. He knocks out Lewis early, and I´d pick him barely over a prime Evander but Holyfield would have a chance to sequak out a decision.
Liston beats any Heavyweight today pretty easily. He´d chop up Klitschko´s face like raw Spam . . .
Liston in terms of head to head matchups is right up there with the elite of the elite in my opinion. 1920s he beats Dempsey but Tunney would have a chance to outbox him. More interesting matchups for me during this period would be Liston vs the other top black fighters of the 20s-Willis and Godfrey . . those would have been some fights!!
1930s and 40s-Only guys I can see beating him are Louis and Jersey Joe. Charles-Liston would have been a hell of a fight too, as well as a scrap with a prime Elmer Ray (which I see Liston winning in a Cleveland Williams type slugfest).
70s-Really the only guys I see with a chance of beating him in the golden age are Young and Holmes. He´d outslug all of the good boxer punchers (Quarry, Lyle (thats a great fight), Shavers, Norton) although if Frazier could survive the early going he could have a chance vs Liston. I see Liston outboxing Foreman to a decision loss in a great fight, could be a KO win for either man though if they decide to open up.
80s-Don´t see Liston having trouble with anyone save Holmes, who could beat Liston by decision but that matchup is too tough to call a winner. He beats Tyson . . .KO by the 6th round.
90s-Liston-Bowe would be a war but Bowe never showed he could handle a puncher with the skill of Liston. He knocks out Lewis early, and I´d pick him barely over a prime Evander but Holyfield would have a chance to sequak out a decision.
Liston beats any Heavyweight today pretty easily. He´d chop up Klitschko´s face like raw Spam . . .
Liston might have beaten anyone on his best day, and would have found success in any era. I think you would have too take Ali and Liston in their primes but who knows.
A fight with Foreman would have been very interesting as would one with Frazier. Liston/Wills is also a good shout.
I think of any of the heavyweight champs Liston would have been Tyson's worst nightmare. You couldn't intimidate him, he had a fantastic powerful jab with a huge reach and a good chin.
Tunney may have stood a chance of out boxing him but he would have had to do so with a 7'' reach disadvantage.
Would love to see Liston vs. Walcott/Charles
A fight with Foreman would have been very interesting as would one with Frazier. Liston/Wills is also a good shout.
I think of any of the heavyweight champs Liston would have been Tyson's worst nightmare. You couldn't intimidate him, he had a fantastic powerful jab with a huge reach and a good chin.
Tunney may have stood a chance of out boxing him but he would have had to do so with a 7'' reach disadvantage.
Would love to see Liston vs. Walcott/Charles
Foreman and Liston
someone mentioned over at the cyberboxing forum that the photo may have been doctored?because it looks more like Foreman and Liston are doin the Funky chicken then sparring.
It's good to see Liston recognised as a great fighter by the several fans that have responded to this post. As we know, at the time when he was the main contender and then champ he was the fighter that the press and the establishment loved to hate - and while the same groups wanted to see him lick Clay/Ali, his failure to do so was the final straw for them.
I've seen several of his fights on film and TV over the years, and was impressed by his skill and his boxing ability - this man could box, think, and punch. When you look at his record as a contender, all the time Patterson was avoiding him he was cleaning up the rest of the Heavyweight division. Machen, Folley, Valdes, DeJohn, Bethea, Williams (at his peak, before several bullets softened him up for Ali), Harris, and anyone else they put in front of him was beaten. There wasn't a worthwhile fighter in the Top 10 at the time he didn't beat - until Clay arrived on the scene.
The post that refers to his second fight with Ali, when he was trained to the minute is true - I remember at the time the fight was postponed Liston was devasted and he said he tought he'd never get back into that sort of shape.
To me, as a teenager in the early 60s, Liston belonged in all time great lists. Nothing that has happened since in the ring will ever convince me otherwise - and to see numerous "My Top 10" lists with his name missing really galls me.
Against the fighters from the 70s and later... my view as to what happens....
Frazier - too small, Liston (like Foreman) blitzes him in a couple of rounds
Foreman... Liston by KO, his jab was much straighter and his all round boxing skills were superior
Lyle, Shavers.... likewise
Holmes.... tough fight, but I lean towards Liston. if you look at the Machen fight, you'll see that he boxes with Machen while forcing the fight - Liston wasn't a wild slugger. Therefore I see him beating Holmes
Spinks.... (both brothers) - not big enough
Lewis... different era, different style. But then I never rated Lewis, so I'll go with Sonny!
Tyson - I think Liston would be too big, and punch too straight
Drago.... no contest
OK, I'm biased...I liked Liston, thought he was harshly judged by people who might have asked themselves if they were "pure and without sin". He had a dreadfully hard childhood, and made something of himself in the ring. He deserves a better legacy than what was left....
J
I've seen several of his fights on film and TV over the years, and was impressed by his skill and his boxing ability - this man could box, think, and punch. When you look at his record as a contender, all the time Patterson was avoiding him he was cleaning up the rest of the Heavyweight division. Machen, Folley, Valdes, DeJohn, Bethea, Williams (at his peak, before several bullets softened him up for Ali), Harris, and anyone else they put in front of him was beaten. There wasn't a worthwhile fighter in the Top 10 at the time he didn't beat - until Clay arrived on the scene.
The post that refers to his second fight with Ali, when he was trained to the minute is true - I remember at the time the fight was postponed Liston was devasted and he said he tought he'd never get back into that sort of shape.
To me, as a teenager in the early 60s, Liston belonged in all time great lists. Nothing that has happened since in the ring will ever convince me otherwise - and to see numerous "My Top 10" lists with his name missing really galls me.
Against the fighters from the 70s and later... my view as to what happens....
Frazier - too small, Liston (like Foreman) blitzes him in a couple of rounds
Foreman... Liston by KO, his jab was much straighter and his all round boxing skills were superior
Lyle, Shavers.... likewise
Holmes.... tough fight, but I lean towards Liston. if you look at the Machen fight, you'll see that he boxes with Machen while forcing the fight - Liston wasn't a wild slugger. Therefore I see him beating Holmes
Spinks.... (both brothers) - not big enough
Lewis... different era, different style. But then I never rated Lewis, so I'll go with Sonny!
Tyson - I think Liston would be too big, and punch too straight
Drago.... no contest
OK, I'm biased...I liked Liston, thought he was harshly judged by people who might have asked themselves if they were "pure and without sin". He had a dreadfully hard childhood, and made something of himself in the ring. He deserves a better legacy than what was left....
J
Nice to see there are some fellow Liston fans out there John. I'm not entirely sure I can go with your picks over Foreman and Holmes though--I see those as both being incredibly close calls, with a power edge to Foreman (that Liston could neutralize with the jab, as you say) and a slight skills edge to Holmes. But who knows? Maybe
cover
Does anyone have,I think it was either the cover of Sports Illustrated or Esquire,that they can post here?When
Sonny Liston was dressed up as Santa Claus.This was when he was still Heavyweight champion.Was that a scary photo or what?
That cover probably put off a lot of the public towards him.
Sonny Liston was dressed up as Santa Claus.This was when he was still Heavyweight champion.Was that a scary photo or what?
That cover probably put off a lot of the public towards him.
I can see where you're coming from on those ones, Dan.
As far as Foreman goes, I couldn't see it going to points, giving the power with which each could hit.... and when you consider how well Liston absorbed full on blows from Cleveland Williams and hit back to win I'd just see him being too good for George. Also the Foreman of the Ron Lyle fight (I think it was Lyle) did show that he was vulnerable to a punch, though to be fair he got up! Anyway, it would have been a great fight to build up to and watch.
Holmes.... I might be about to unleash a tirade from an army of Holmes fans here but I never thought the Holmes jab was a particularly great punch... maybe I just saw him on the wrong nights, but to me it always looked more like a "pawing and prodding" jab than a straight from the shoulder punch - though I suppose the latter would strictly speaking be a "straight left". I think that represents the difference between these two fighters in a match up, but I guess it also shows how styles (and the physical size) of boxers changes over the decades - so maybe Liston would have looked and fought differently had he been born 20-30 years later! Then again, if that was the case he might have become a basketball player (!)
J
As far as Foreman goes, I couldn't see it going to points, giving the power with which each could hit.... and when you consider how well Liston absorbed full on blows from Cleveland Williams and hit back to win I'd just see him being too good for George. Also the Foreman of the Ron Lyle fight (I think it was Lyle) did show that he was vulnerable to a punch, though to be fair he got up! Anyway, it would have been a great fight to build up to and watch.
Holmes.... I might be about to unleash a tirade from an army of Holmes fans here but I never thought the Holmes jab was a particularly great punch... maybe I just saw him on the wrong nights, but to me it always looked more like a "pawing and prodding" jab than a straight from the shoulder punch - though I suppose the latter would strictly speaking be a "straight left". I think that represents the difference between these two fighters in a match up, but I guess it also shows how styles (and the physical size) of boxers changes over the decades - so maybe Liston would have looked and fought differently had he been born 20-30 years later! Then again, if that was the case he might have become a basketball player (!)
J
Good point about Liston-Williams, though to appreciate Foreman's boxing ability--which I admit isn't as sharp as Liston was--you need to look at some of his earlier fights like Peralta or even Chuvalo. By the time he fought Lyle (or even Ali) he'd fallen in love with his own punching power too much--all big punches, no jabs, no defense. I'd have to agree there'd be little chance of it going to the cards no matter how he boxed, though.
The only fighters in history (from era to era) that I think could beat Liston are Ali of course, Tyson because I think he hit harder and takes a better shot than Liston, Holyfield becuase he would do to Liston what he did to Tyson, Foreman of either era, and that is it.
Let me clarify Tyson, Foreman, and Holyfield. Holyfield would not be bullied and nobody knocks him out in his prime. Foreman becuase he is a bigger stronger bulley than Liston, and Tyson becuase he hits as hard or harder and takes a better shot than Liston. Of course we are talking about each in their prime.
Let me clarify Tyson, Foreman, and Holyfield. Holyfield would not be bullied and nobody knocks him out in his prime. Foreman becuase he is a bigger stronger bulley than Liston, and Tyson becuase he hits as hard or harder and takes a better shot than Liston. Of course we are talking about each in their prime.
But he didn't do it. He got stopped. Tyson didn't do it. Lewis didn't do it. Foreman didn't do it. All of them (not Bert Cooper) have similar power to Liston yet none of them could knock him out.JohnRuiz wrote:Bert Cooper was one punch away, yet there's no way Sonny Liston could do it?zslayton wrote:Holyfield would not be bullied and nobody knocks him out in his prime.
And Bert Cooper hits very hard.