Britain's greatest never to HOLD a British or World title!

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 15 Apr 2005, 15:05

Every picture tells a story they say... well that's even more so with the FACTS attached to them.

http://www.bertgilroy.com tells that story, LOADS of information on this boxing great and by clicking on the pics the enlarged pictures with their 'captions' unravells the FACTS and Questions surrounding the Greatest British fighter never to HOLD a British or World title!!!

Come on over and discover for yourselves who Bert Gilroy really was... http://www.bertgilroy.com

Yours in Boxing, Jim.

jomothepure · Post by **jomothepure** » 15 Apr 2005, 15:21

C'mon, too easy, Audley Harrison. Next.

Shit, he's won a world title. Darn!

JC · Post by JC » 15 Apr 2005, 16:19

When someone asks this one I always think of Jem Driscoll, though I admit I've never seen him fight.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 15 Apr 2005, 20:15

Yeah Peerless Jim for me. Herol Graham and Dave Charnley are probably the other major contendors.

I really rated Crawford Ashley aswell, but had too many other defeats in his resume to really be classed with the three mentioned above.

Who knows how good Spencer Oliver would have become.

barry · Post by **barry** » 16 Apr 2005, 06:25

Certainly Jim Driscoll! Ben Jordan, Jock McAvoy, Len Harvey (Could have easily been Light Heavyweight champ), Ronnie James and Bruce Woodcock also come to mind!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Apr 2005, 07:41

Good shouts with Jock McAvoy and Len Harvey especially, Barry.

kevin · Post by **kevin** » 16 Apr 2005, 07:54

Jock McAvoy is definately one I would have loved to have seen 'live' and definately deserved a shot at the world title

barry · Post by **barry** » 16 Apr 2005, 10:08

No doubt about Jock McAvoy, he came over here (USA) and obliterated current NBA middleweight champ Babe Risko and was a big hit with New York fans, who simply loved him! Unfortunely, that is about all that a lot of Americans know about McAvoy. I'd certainly like to read a lot more about him.

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 16 Apr 2005, 11:49

I'm glad Jock has been brought up because this post has been wrongly read as a question, it is in fact a statement and an insight to Bert Gilroy!

Some of the guys here know about Bert, and with regard to McAvoy (who is widely regarded as Britains greatest middle) Gilroy was FAVORITE to Beat him... Bert chased McAvoy from mid 1938-44 and there are even 'reports' they were all but set to meet in Edinburgh in 1945!

But Bert was FROZEN-OUT, "too good for his own good" as the saying goes. Jock McAvoy and Bert Gilroy ARE the GREATEST middleweights these fare Ilses have EVER produced... Go to http://www.bertgilroy.com and discover the truth and NOTE the "tribute" to Jock McAvoy in the 'opponents page 2' and also in the 'scrapbook' demo pages!

IT IS THE STATUS that McAvoy, Mills, Woodcock and Don Cockell recieved that 'single' out the Greatness of Bert Gilroy who was cheated of his chance (10 years, No.1)!

Check it out with approx 60 pictures that 'tell the story' and loads of additional information, see also the 'Who's, Who page from the scrapbook too, Yours Jim.

kevin · Post by **kevin** » 16 Apr 2005, 12:22

Barry, There have been a couple of books on McAvoy that are great reads.

Jim, surely McAvoy was past his best in 1945?

Kev

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 16 Apr 2005, 13:34

Of course he was, BUT he was still in top form in 1938-42 - he still could have been quite easilly world middleweight and possibly light-heavyweight Champion then and this is "when Bert was FAVORITE to beat him" and the period Mac SHOULD have been fighting Bert as you know Kevin...

Anyway this is not in spite of McAvoy's greatness as you know Kevin, it is BECAUSE of it, Gilroy complimented McAvoy and like wise so did McAvoy Bert, as discovered in an interview with ol' Bert Daly, who was a McAvoy man and who was there through it all.

Bert's book and his website pay tribute to McAvoy and they were the BEST, this thread is merely an opportunity for the uninformed to "see for themselves" who Bert was and the degree of 1st Class boxer/fighter Great Britain had in Bert Gilroy and had the 'powerhouses' been more interested in fair play than protection, they had Historical greatness in Gilroy... but you know all this Kevin.

Thoughts from all after reviewing the site welcomed, http://www.bertgilroy.com SEE for yourselves..!

liamlion · Post by **liamlion** » 16 Apr 2005, 15:59

Although he certainly wasnt the greatest Brit never to have won the World Title, I always thought Billy Schwer was very unlucky.

He was too good for British and European level but unluckily for Billy, in his day the proper Lightweight World Champions were top drawer. In his prime Billy pushed a very decent Rafael Ruelas to a close points loss. And showed great gritt to push a steriod-riddened Stevie Johnson all the way.

Billy Schwer was a very, very good fighter.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Apr 2005, 05:37

liamlion wrote:Although he certainly wasnt the greatest Brit never to have won the World Title, I always thought Billy Schwer was very unlucky.

He was too good for British and European level but unluckily for Billy, in his day the proper Lightweight World Champions were top drawer. In his prime Billy pushed a very decent Rafael Ruelas to a close points loss. And showed great gritt to push a steriod-riddened Stevie Johnson all the way.

Billy Schwer was a very, very good fighter.

Agreed, Schwer was an excellent fighter, his tendency to cut and swell held him back a little, but he was JUST short of being genuine world championship material.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Apr 2005, 05:43

Michael Brodie is another one who was very unfortunate. He really should have been champion after the fight with Jorrin.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 18 Apr 2005, 06:36

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
liamlion wrote:Although he certainly wasnt the greatest Brit never to have won the World Title, I always thought Billy Schwer was very unlucky.

He was too good for British and European level but unluckily for Billy, in his day the proper Lightweight World Champions were top drawer. In his prime Billy pushed a very decent Rafael Ruelas to a close points loss. And showed great gritt to push a steriod-riddened Stevie Johnson all the way.

Billy Schwer was a very, very good fighter.
Agreed, Schwer was an excellent fighter, his tendency to cut and swell held him back a little, but he was JUST short of being genuine world championship material.

I think Brodie and Schwer are on a similar level - I think both could have won geniune world titles. Brodie SHOULD already be a champion and I think Schwer would have been had he opted for lesser champions than Ruelas and especially Johnson.

Up untill the cut Schwer was MORE than holding his own vs Johnson. I don't think he was just short of geniune world title material, its just he fought two excellent world champions.

barry · Post by **barry** » 18 Apr 2005, 06:41

Dave "Boy" Green, his misfortune was that he just happened to face two excellent fighters for a world title.

Al Foreman was a brutal punching featherweight who unfortunately never got a shot at a title.

Ernie Roderick was as tough as they come.

Owen Moran never gained universal recognition, but he was one of the best, in my opinion, from the U.K. If I'm not mistaken, Moran was the first to stop Battling Nelson!

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 18 Apr 2005, 07:03

barry wrote:Dave "Boy" Green, his misfortune was that he just happened to face two excellent fighters for a world title.

Al Foreman was a brutal punching featherweight who unfortunately never got a shot at a title.

Ernie Roderick was as tough as they come.

Owen Moran never gained universal recognition, but he was one of the best, in my opinion, from the U.K. If I'm not mistaken, Moran was the first to stop Battling Nelson!

Yes, Moran was thought of very highly in America... he fought Abe ATTELL to two 'draws' for the world Featherweight title when most thought he had won and he also faught AD Wolghast for the Lightweight world title and was koed by a low blow. He was never more than a Bantam usually scaling around 120 ish.

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 18 Apr 2005, 07:54

Hmmm, isn't this thread about Britain's greatest never to hold a BRITISH or WORLD title. All these names bar Audley have been British Champs.

Going on the thread title, Len Johnson and Dick Richardson come to mind.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 18 Apr 2005, 07:59

lamphey wrote:Hmmm, isn't this thread about Britain's greatest never to hold a BRITISH or WORLD title. All these names bar Audley have been British Champs.

Spencer Oliver.

It will all depend though on what you interpret as a world champion. If you don't count WBO you have Eubank, Hamed and Robinson as contendors.

Shea Neary, Colin Dunne, Eamomn Magee, Johnny Armour

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 18 Apr 2005, 08:22

John Feeney never won a Lonsdale outright and neither did Terry Spinks.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 18 Apr 2005, 08:24

Manos de Oro wrote:John Feeney never won a Lonsdale outright and neither did Terry Spinks.

Yes, but they did hold the title.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 18 Apr 2005, 08:27

stujones wrote:
Manos de Oro wrote:John Feeney never won a Lonsdale outright and neither did Terry Spinks.
Yes, but they did hold the title.

I know it was off-topic, still thought it warranted a mention. :(

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 18 Apr 2005, 11:29

Herol Bomber Graham, Howard Eastman could be a contender for this award

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 18 Apr 2005, 11:38

Chambers2 wrote:Herol Bomber Graham, Howard Eastman could be a contender for this award

Never held a British or World title, both of them have.

If it was just World then yes Graham is a contendor - Eastman isn't.

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 18 Apr 2005, 11:42

stujones wrote:
Chambers2 wrote:Herol Bomber Graham, Howard Eastman could be a contender for this award
Never held a British or World title, both of them have.

If it was just World then yes Graham is a contendor - Eastman isn't.

Oops didn't read the title properly

If it was never to win a world title, Eastman is a contender IMO