Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?

[BoxBuzz]

If that's enough to make you a near-great, open the floodgates.

that was not the nuance I was heading for. But I think you know that.

[Robinson]

DF
I do enjoy the 'Holmes' era of boxing, though I think it is an era
that is more potential rich and the potential is sadly unrealised
or wasted in many ways. Which hurts its standing as far as
greatness goes. Some good men that perhaps could have or
should have been greater.

GI

Larry ! Larry ! Larry !

"Ain't no stoppin' us now
We're on the move (yeah-ee-a, yeah-ee-a)
Ain't no stoppin' us now
We've got the groove..."

[Darling]

Don't forget the intro where Jose Feliciano gave his unique rendition of The Star Spangled Banner!

Brilliant!

[dempseyfire]

Shavers is a near-nothing. They don't come more over-rated (or limited) than The Acorn.

A guy who is so 'limited' doesn't get knockout wins over Norton, Ellis, Bugner, Clarke and Tiger Williams and seriously hurt Holmes, Ali, Lyle etc.

Shavers did have stamina issues from fighting too wound up and he could get very sloppy when he fatigued, but he had a solid skillset, a good chin, tremondous heart and willpower, and possibly the hardest single-shot right hand of any boxer who has ever lived. If you open the 'floodgates' to that critera you have very few entrants . .

[Robinson]

I think that sudden and shockingly instant power is part of the
reason why Shavers had long term stamina issues. He was no
doubt all fast twitch. You see it often in the gym with most sports
guys that are unbeatably fast, powerful and instant for a short
period who taper of after a bit. Then other guys that are all endurance
but not much else.

[Bricks]

Why wouldn't Holmes think he was the best ever? That is the mentality of a great fighter. Tyson thought he was too, except Mike always knew that Evander was his daddy.

The only fighter I have ever heard Holmes speak of with respect is Larry Holmes. The guy is an asshole, pure and simple.

Exactly thats my whole point.
Of course there is also the mentally disturbed troll on a certain boxing forum I have dealt with in the past who always champions Holmes but his is hardly a sane relavent opinion! lol.

[Bricks]

c'mon granberry if you want to be controversial you have to say things I dont agree with.

Larry Holmes is one of the most overrated heavyweights of all time and a classless jerk by the same token.

Not wishing to reopen some peoples old wounds but what a prime George Foreman would have done to Holmes :(

Ive always felt the Tyson loss told us a lot more about Holmes than some think. Especially since Holmes constantly likes to use his victory over a parkinsons and drug ravaged Ali as proof he always would have beaten Ali.

Holmes is a loud mouth with no dignity the way he is always hollering and acting vulgar

Overrated by who exactly? In order to be overrated you actually have to be talked about as one of the best? Overrated by who exactly?
Mugabi's Answer: Overrated by himself for one thing and he sure gets more coverage than a 10,000 internet boxing forum posters..Holmes doesnt seem to do anything else these days other than spend all his time sitting in his real estate HQ putting Ali and other HW champions down with insults on and on and on. It's rather desperate and its no coincidence that given his bitter boring personality the station of World Heavyweight boxing champion was so demeaned during Holmes reign. Wheras in the days of Ali, Marciano, Louis and Dempsey and Tunney it was the noblest ranking in sport as well as the richest prize.
You can be a top 6-8 HW and talk and act like you were number 1 with bitterness everytime a reporter shoves a microphone in your face, that constitutes being overrated since you dont hear Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Lewis or Tyson or Holyfield or Bowe or other champions ever shouting their mouths off like this and getting so much press doing it and having so many buddies in the formal boxing press in the pre internet era saying you were a top 4 guy (note Harry Mullan did it and Hugh McIllvanny at one point did it too) Tyson is mentioned over and over and over by people when talking about great heavyweights, so if you want to argue about him being overrated then you could, although I would disagree. Larry is rarely mentioned in the same sentence as Louis, Ali, Tyson, and the others. Larry is in fact underrated because he is hardly ever mentioned. Yeah except by himself again and again

If it is so easy for a guy to win 47 straight fights can you please explain to me only a couple of guys have ever done it? No one said it was easy where did I say that? I simply said its deplorable the way he talks of himself as number 1 and puts other HW champions down. BTW Nikolai Valuev also had a similar record, make of that what you want since your quoting records as your sole evidence, I'm not comparing Valuev to Holmes but since you made a big deal of the record thing i thought i would quote that make of it what you want but Im not comparing Larry to Valuev Larry cleaned out the entire division. Cleaned it out. What exactly should he have done? He didn't clean out the division he didnt fight Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee or Mike Dokes back when those guys were at their best and fellow "champs".Also the competition Holmes fought in title fights people like Cobb,Frank, a unready Marvis Frazer to name a few were pretty weak.Weaker than the guys a Joe Frazier or Ali, heck even a Lewis or Holyfield faced in title fights to quote a few examples. Larry never unified which is part of his legacy since Ali, Foreman, Frazier and others would not allow themselves to be an alphabet titlist.


I can go on and on naming all-time greats who had an off night and lost. Yes Im sure you could but what is the relevence? none of them go around trashing other fellow champions and claiming to be number 1 all the time like Holmes does Holmes made it 47 straight fights without having that night. You can argue he was given a good score card here or there, but he did not obviously lose any of those fights.

This is literally the most ridiculous claim I have read in this forum since...well...yesterday when some idiot claimed Ali lost 17 fights
well I have to confess i really think you havent seen the wood for the trees and really dont understand what exactly is your point, that Holmes isnt overrated as no one thinks he is top 5 material except himself my point on the other hand which you seem to have missed, is very clear, Larry Holmes is abitter man who goes around saying he is the best HW ever and disparaging his predeccesors like Ali and Marciano.


And while I am at it, please quote Holmes when he "uses his victory over a parkinsons and drug ravaged Ali as proof he always would have beaten Ali." Please...


Easy go and google Larry Holmes interview and you will find plenty of examples please actually research something before you throw a hissy fit

He has never said anything of the sort. What was that thing about the most ridiculous claim you have ever read. Try reading your own claims that Holmes is some latter day Gene Tunney all dignity and grace. Holmes said in front of Rocky Marciano's family that the Rock couldnt hold his jockstrap. Utterly devoid of class.Rocky was dead and unable to defend himself. In fact he has been nothing but humble about having to beat up his friend in that state. But please prove me wrong with a link showing any such quote where he claims that victory means he would have beat Ali at his bestAgain google Larry Holmes he has been saying it for 30 years, go on youtube but dont act like the man who just found out we landed on the moon in 1969 . You can't because he has never said it. He has said he would beat Ali because they were sparring partners for many years and he knew how to beat him. Amazing made up fact on your part though.

My replies are in bold above.

[Bricks]

Holmes beat a great fighter (Norton), a near-great (Shavers) and several other very good heavyweights in Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Berbick etc.

Overall his competition wasn't great, and I disagree with Rob in that the early 80s were some great HW era (an interesting era with depth that far surpasses what he have now, but more full of guys with good athleticism as opposed to real skills), but Holmes fought the best available given the politics of the period, and his consistency goes a long way.

Smith and Berbick were very very limited guys not very good HW's in my opinion more decent heavyweights lucky to ever win a title who had some of the most undistinguished "title" reigns ever.
BTW I actually had the young Witherspoon shading Larry.

[jrc26]

c'mon granberry if you want to be controversial you have to say things I dont agree with.

Larry Holmes is one of the most overrated heavyweights of all time and a classless jerk by the same token.

Not wishing to reopen some peoples old wounds but what a prime George Foreman would have done to Holmes :(

Ive always felt the Tyson loss told us a lot more about Holmes than some think. Especially since Holmes constantly likes to use his victory over a parkinsons and drug ravaged Ali as proof he always would have beaten Ali.

Holmes is a loud mouth with no dignity the way he is always hollering and acting vulgar

Overrated by who exactly? In order to be overrated you actually have to be talked about as one of the best? Overrated by who exactly?
Mugabi's Answer: Overrated by himself for one thing and he sure gets more coverage than a 10,000 internet boxing forum posters..Holmes doesnt seem to do anything else these days other than spend all his time sitting in his real estate HQ putting Ali and other HW champions down with insults on and on and on. It's rather desperate and its no coincidence that given his bitter boring personality the station of World Heavyweight boxing champion was so demeaned during Holmes reign. Wheras in the days of Ali, Marciano, Louis and Dempsey and Tunney it was the noblest ranking in sport as well as the richest prize.
You can be a top 6-8 HW and talk and act like you were number 1 with bitterness everytime a reporter shoves a microphone in your face, that constitutes being overrated since you dont hear Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Lewis or Tyson or Holyfield or Bowe or other champions ever shouting their mouths off like this and getting so much press doing it and having so many buddies in the formal boxing press in the pre internet era saying you were a top 4 guy (note Harry Mullan did it and Hugh McIllvanny at one point did it too) Tyson is mentioned over and over and over by people when talking about great heavyweights, so if you want to argue about him being overrated then you could, although I would disagree. Larry is rarely mentioned in the same sentence as Louis, Ali, Tyson, and the others. Larry is in fact underrated because he is hardly ever mentioned. Yeah except by himself again and again

If it is so easy for a guy to win 47 straight fights can you please explain to me only a couple of guys have ever done it? No one said it was easy where did I say that? I simply said its deplorable the way he talks of himself as number 1 and puts other HW champions down. BTW Nikolai Valuev also had a similar record, make of that what you want since your quoting records as your sole evidence, I'm not comparing Valuev to Holmes but since you made a big deal of the record thing i thought i would quote that make of it what you want but Im not comparing Larry to Valuev Larry cleaned out the entire division. Cleaned it out. What exactly should he have done? He didn't clean out the division he didnt fight Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee or Mike Dokes back when those guys were at their best and fellow "champs".Also the competition Holmes fought in title fights people like Cobb,Frank, a unready Marvis Frazer to name a few were pretty weak.Weaker than the guys a Joe Frazier or Ali, heck even a Lewis or Holyfield faced in title fights to quote a few examples. Larry never unified which is part of his legacy since Ali, Foreman, Frazier and others would not allow themselves to be an alphabet titlist.


I can go on and on naming all-time greats who had an off night and lost. Yes Im sure you could but what is the relevence? none of them go around trashing other fellow champions and claiming to be number 1 all the time like Holmes does Holmes made it 47 straight fights without having that night. You can argue he was given a good score card here or there, but he did not obviously lose any of those fights.

This is literally the most ridiculous claim I have read in this forum since...well...yesterday when some idiot claimed Ali lost 17 fights
well I have to confess i really think you havent seen the wood for the trees and really dont understand what exactly is your point, that Holmes isnt overrated as no one thinks he is top 5 material except himself my point on the other hand which you seem to have missed, is very clear, Larry Holmes is abitter man who goes around saying he is the best HW ever and disparaging his predeccesors like Ali and Marciano.


And while I am at it, please quote Holmes when he "uses his victory over a parkinsons and drug ravaged Ali as proof he always would have beaten Ali." Please...


Easy go and google Larry Holmes interview and you will find plenty of examples please actually research something before you throw a hissy fit

He has never said anything of the sort. What was that thing about the most ridiculous claim you have ever read. Try reading your own claims that Holmes is some latter day Gene Tunney all dignity and grace. Holmes said in front of Rocky Marciano's family that the Rock couldnt hold his jockstrap. Utterly devoid of class.Rocky was dead and unable to defend himself. In fact he has been nothing but humble about having to beat up his friend in that state. But please prove me wrong with a link showing any such quote where he claims that victory means he would have beat Ali at his bestAgain google Larry Holmes he has been saying it for 30 years, go on youtube but dont act like the man who just found out we landed on the moon in 1969 . You can't because he has never said it. He has said he would beat Ali because they were sparring partners for many years and he knew how to beat him. Amazing made up fact on your part though.

My replies are in bold above.

You made the claim so prove it. I am not doing google searches for quotes or clips that do not exist. Holmes has never claimed his win over Ali proved anything. Show me the quote.

I also find it funny that you bitch about Holmes saying Ali was overrated and thinking he is better than Ali. That is rich standing up for the man who was the KING of trashing other fighters. I can actually quote 10X worse things that Ali has said of other fighters than Holmes has.

Here is an actual quote from Larry Holmes, because I use actual facts not just claims. ""Ali had no spark, no energy. He was a shell of himself....Ali began cursing me....'You dumb motherfucker...asshole....fuckhead. You ain't shit as a fighter...never were.'"

Poor Ali. Holmes admits he beat a shell of Ali. Ali called him every name in the book just like he had every other fighter he had faced. BUT, you are sour over Holmes overrating himself and thinking he was better than Ali.

You must really hate Joe Frazier then. When asked about Ali lighting the Olympic torch..."I hope they push him in it."

If you don't like Holmes fine, but don't make things up to suit your argument. Feel free to quote Holmes just once saying his win against Ali meant anything. The only disparaging thing I have heard him say about Ali is that he was overrated. I have a feeling many on this board would agree with that. But then again that isn't very disparaging since you claim Holmes to be overrated, and you wouldn't be disparaging would you?

[Ezzard]

Post-Witherspoon Holmes was alwasy looig for the easiest fight for the most money...but that's boxing for you. But he still kept on eeking out those wins. He did miss out on some names, maybe more than he should have. He could also be a bit of a d1ck...

I agree on Tyson being complimentary to the old-timers.

One thing though... 80s HW boxing was full of terrible fights and full of unmotivated slobs. I don't look back on it now as a silver era after the 70s. It wasn't.

[Bricks]

The strange thing is that in retrospect, those slobs of the 80's dont look like such slobs now in comparison to some of these 6ft 5 260 pounders. Tim Witherspoon took a terrible mauling by the London press for being so out of shape when he went to London to fight Bruno. But his stamina was there, and I remember Don King at the end salivating over what an exciting fight it had been! Which tells you the lack of excitement in fights in the HW division in the 80's involving often very very talented athletes and boxers just laying on each other for 15 rounds!

I guess Holyfield,Ruddock, Bowe , Morrison ,Moorer and Stewart and old man Foreman ushered in a new era of exciting matches in the HW division in the early 90's.

Getting back to Holmes in the ring my view is he was a very good heavyweight champion but not a great one. Definetly not in the top 6 or 8 in my opinion.

[Ezzard]

The Page-Tubbs-Witherspoon passing of the torch was almost repsonsible for making the male brassiere fashionable. Then the ones who were in shape were rarely mentally on their game for more than a fight or two.

I truly believe that Holmes was a great.

Good footwork, good mobility. A magnificent jab. Great ring intelligence. And great mental resilience. The man had a spare tyre for at least 3 years of his reign and was still king of the hill.

The only criticism I would have is that the closer he got to 49-0 the less of a risk he was prepared to take AND he was partly responsible for the IBF getting their foot in the door…but then I guess if it hadn’t have been Larry it would have been someone else.

I usually have Holmes at #4… But I’m happy to see him anywhere between say 3-10… Depends on the argument.

[HomicideHenry]

Witherspoon, Berbick, I think are under-rated when it comes to Holmes

However, I think, that Cooney was the best of the bunch; undoubtedly the best left hook of the 80's among the HW's

[Goodnight, Irene]

Witherspoon, Berbick, I think are under-rated when it comes to Holmes

However, I think, that Cooney was the best of the bunch; undoubtedly the best left hook of the 80's among the HW's

Better than Tyson's, would you say?

[HomicideHenry]

Tyson's power was uncanny, yes, but his power came more from his blinding speed and defense [not to mention combinations], catching most guys off guard. I think as far as physical strength goes, Cooney had an edge, maybe not a big one, but an edge nonetheless. One punch power, I think is all Cooney. Tyson wasnt too far behind.

[Bricks]

Cooney as a contender leading up to the Holmes fight is very underrated. The reason is, he was built up by the media to the stars, than he lost..........and the backlash ruined his mental state and appetite for fighting.

A real shame because he fought his heart out against Holmes.

But it was his subsequent long long spells of inactivity and letting himself succomb to drink and drugs that made the East coast press in particular despise him even more.

I remember rating Cooney the 10th best inactive HW since Ali and the resident troll trying to troll me to death for having an opinion different to his! It was like me even expressing my opinion blew his small mind and he needed to know why or he would die! So imagine the heat Gerry took for disapointing troll like New York Boxing writers!

[Goodnight, Irene]

Tyson's power was uncanny, yes, but his power came more from his blinding speed and defense [not to mention combinations], catching most guys off guard. I think as far as physical strength goes, Cooney had an edge, maybe not a big one, but an edge nonetheless. One punch power, I think is all Cooney. Tyson wasnt too far behind.

I think it's a bit unfair to take away an attribute a fighter uses to contribute to their punching power, but to each, his own.

[HomicideHenry]

aint taking much away from tyson; there are deep parallels between tyson and cooney, though imho. Both men's level of opposition is in question. Cooney's best opponents were old, Tyson's best opponents in his prime were limited and an average bunch. Both defeated their opponents with amazing finishes, but both lacked the artillary when they went against the elite.

[jrc26]

I have his 5 best wins as:

1. Norton
2. Shavers I
3. Cooney
4. Berbick
5. Witherspoon

He also upset an undefeated Ray Mercer in his second go around and gave McCall and Holyfield very tough fights.

His defenses as a whole don't look any worse than quite a few of the other top 10 heavyweights of all-time.

Joe Louis fought many fighters of far lesser talent. Lennox Lewis did. Tyson certainly did. The Klitschkos are making a living doing it. I don't think either of them have beat a fighter that would make Holmes list of best 5 wins. Marciano fought when the division was at one of it's weakest points. You can go on and on. In order for a guy to win 40-50-60 fights in his career he has to fight 75% guys who really don't have a chance.

Ali was lucky ti fight at a time when there were other great talents and rivals to fight. As did Foreman and Frazier obviously. You can't really blame Holmes for there not being a true equal or rival for him during his reign. You can argue how he would have looked had he fought another great, but it isn't exactly like he ducked a fighter who would make anyone's top heavyweights list. I have heard Page and Coetzer mentioned, but seriously who thinks he would have lost to either of them?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Pretty depressing when your best wins include names like Cooney & Shavers

[Bricks]

aint taking much away from tyson; there are deep parallels between tyson and cooney, though imho. Both men's level of opposition is in question. Cooney's best opponents were old, Tyson's best opponents in his prime were limited and an average bunch. Both defeated their opponents with amazing finishes, but both lacked the artillary when they went against the elite.

Tysons opponents in his prime were hardly an average bunch. They had all the physical tools, talent and athleticism in the world.Perhaps as much as many generation of Heavyweights in history. The problem was the lack of motivation allied with drugs and out of ring problems or inactivity.

You name any one out of this bunch at their prime Thomas,Ruddock,Tubbs, Bruno, Tucker or Briggs and I firmly beleive the Klitchko's aside they would dominate HW boxing today.

[jrc26]

Pretty depressing when your best wins include names like Cooney & Shavers

Cooney and Shavers were both great fighters in two ways. They both packed a big punch and they were willing to take a lot of punishment to land it...especially Shavers.

I agree neither of them were good boxers per say, and you wouldn't want a young fighter immulating either of their styles, but you are a little soft on the significance of those wins.

Cooney was a big win due to the hype of the fight and the racial tension going on throughout. I don't make light of the fact that Holmes was under death threats and had his house vandalized before the fight. He also received phone calls at home being called all sorts of names. That sort of nonsense has to weigh VERY heavy on a man when he is focusing on a heavyweight championship fight.

His first win against Shavers was big because it put him on the big stage for the first time. Plus we cannot make light of the fact that Shavers packed one of biggest punches in boxing history. He had Ali's legs looking like jello.

So while I agree, GI, that he didn't beat Joe Louis and Joe Frazier there, but both of those guys were very dangerous fighters in their own rights. You are also looking at it as a whole after their careers are over. You have to look at it when the fights happened. Both were very dangerous opponents.

[Goodnight, Irene]

They were dangerous, because they had such tremendous power (if largely one-handed, in both cases).

However, they were extremely limited fellas, the pair of 'em, & Shavers especially is an over-rated figure in Boxing (though he may have been Cooney's better). I run the comb over these three, Holmes, Shavers & Cooney, & I will say this literally --- I cannot find a single facet of the sport in which those two guys had an edge against Holmes outside of hitting power. That's a pretty stacked deck, any way you slice it.

Further, it's not as if these guys were quite capable or advanced in a lot of ways, but just conceded to Holmes' greatness (as would be the case with the recent Mayweather-Marquez fight). No, Sir --- there were some areas to both men which were downright terrible, in world-class terms.

[jrc26]

They were dangerous, because they had such tremendous power (if largely one-handed, in both cases).

However, they were extremely limited fellas, the pair of 'em, & Shavers especially is an over-rated figure in Boxing (though he may have been Cooney's better). I run the comb over these three, Holmes, Shavers & Cooney, & I will say this literally --- I cannot find a single facet of the sport in which those two guys had an edge against Holmes outside of hitting power. That's a pretty stacked deck, any way you slice it.

Further, it's not as if these guys were quite capable or advanced in a lot of ways, but just conceded to Holmes' greatness (as would be the case with the recent Mayweather-Marquez fight). No, Sir --- there were some areas to both men which were downright terrible, in world-class terms.

No argument on anything you say. I simply say they were good boardering on very good wins. Especially given the circumstances I mentioned going into the Cooney fight. A lot of fighters would not handle that sort of pre-fight pressure/garbage very well. Even Holmes seemed ready to crack at some points during pressers.

[Robinson]

Either way you look at it. Cooney in 1981-82 was a very real and very
credible contender and I doubt any great past or present would have
taken him lightly. After the fact we saw him lose interest and spiral into
uncertain standings, but his only losses were to 3 HW champions.

His wins on the way to Holmes were mostly over the hill names, certainly,
he did however decimate those that were before him leading up to that
fight.

I do not think that either Cooney or Shavers were 'extremely limited'.
I think both were well schooled fighters, both had as mentioned tremendous
power, both employed their strengths well, and did their best to protect
their weaknesses (exposed chins when going for the kill, and lack of long
term stamina which is common with most fast twitch athletes).

The fact remains that both guys would give a lot of champions trouble and
would be credible wins to any champion, especially at the stage of the
careers that both men were at when they fought Holmes.