YOUR score for the Ali-Norton fights.

[GranberryReturns]

"He was needed as the heavyweight champion. Ken Norton, on the other hand, wasn't."

Sums it up well. $$$

That was one of old gran's mantras too.

Yancey is the most prescient and objective poster on this board. Because he doesn't grovel at the altar of Muhammad Ali makes him a target for lesser men.

[BoxBuzz]

I've always said these two guys fought around 40 rounds to no conclusive outcome. You want to claim Ali or Norton had the edge for any 12 or more consecutive rounds I'm ok with that. Those who say Ali dominated, or those who say Norton dominated, are the only ones I have a disagreement with. Still I would like to know why the referee called it the way he did.

There probably was no excuse for that last round from Norton if he wanted the championship and had something more to deliver. He looks a bit lumbering in those last 3 minutes to my eyes.

Just like there was no excuse for Young poking his head out of the ring if he wanted to walk out with a victory sans a KO.

I'm not anti Norton....I thought he eeked the fight with Holmes. That's a fight I'd like to see everyone's scoring on. Another close one....But I saw it as a Norton win.

New champions should "extricate" the belt, not sneak it down the steps through the low rope of the ring. IMHO.

[dempseyfire]

I've always said these two guys fought around 40 rounds to no conclusive outcome. You want to claim Ali or Norton had the edge for any 12 or more consecutive rounds I'm ok with that. Those who say Ali dominated, or those who say Norton dominated, are the only ones I have a disagreement with. Still I would like to know why the referee called it the way he did.

There probably was no excuse for that last round from Norton if he wanted the championship and had something more to deliver. He looks a bit lumbering in those last 3 minutes to my eyes.

Just like there was no excuse for Young poking his head out of the ring if he wanted to walk out with a victory sans a KO.

I'm not anti Norton....I thought he eeked the fight with Holmes. That's a fight I'd like to see everyone's scoring on. Another close one....But I saw it as a Norton win.

New champions should "extricate" the belt, not sneak it down the steps through the low rope of the ring. IMHO.

Buzz, instead of posting other people's recollections of the fight why not just post your scorecard showing the lack of a "conclusive outcome" . . ?

You seem to be beating around the bush to the fact that Norton was robbed blind in the third fight, plain and simple. First it's the ref couldn't have gotten it so wrong . . then it's, hey, some James Slater said it was a close bout . . .just show your scorecard.

[jrc26]

First Fight

10-2 Norton

Second Fight

11-1 Norton

Third Fight

15-0 Norton

Also, Ali never won a round against Joe Frazier, Jimmy Young, and Leon Spinks.

Do us all a favor and change your name to "Granberry Leaves Forever".

[raylawpc]

I've always said these two guys fought around 40 rounds to no conclusive outcome. You want to claim Ali or Norton had the edge for any 12 or more consecutive rounds I'm ok with that. Those who say Ali dominated, or those who say Norton dominated, are the only ones I have a disagreement with. Still I would like to know why the referee called it the way he did.

There probably was no excuse for that last round from Norton if he wanted the championship and had something more to deliver. He looks a bit lumbering in those last 3 minutes to my eyes.

Just like there was no excuse for Young poking his head out of the ring if he wanted to walk out with a victory sans a KO.

I'm not anti Norton....I thought he eeked the fight with Holmes. That's a fight I'd like to see everyone's scoring on. Another close one....But I saw it as a Norton win.

New champions should "extricate" the belt, not sneak it down the steps through the low rope of the ring. IMHO.

It was pretty conclusive to me. I had Norton winning all three times, and decisively in the first and third fights. (The second was close,and I have no quarrel with those who think Ali won or called it a draw.) I, too, had him edging Larry Holmes.

[John Galt]

I agree with Ray that Norton won all 3 fights with Ali, but all that means is that Norton knew how to beat Ali. Ali was more adaptable and versatile than Norton and could beat boxers that Norton couldn't beat.

A friend who is a wrestling coach told me that in college wrestling it is not uncommon to have a national champion wrestler who can't beat the second string wrestler on his own team in the squad wrestle-offs. He said that happens and it takes a good coach to understand that the guy who is losing in the wrestling room is the wrestler who is more likely to win against outside competition. I think that Norton was like that for Ali. Ali was the better boxer, but Norton, for some reason was able to beat him. Put them against other competition and Ali will perform better than Norton.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I agree with Ray that Norton won all 3 fights with Ali, but all that means is that Norton knew how to beat Ali. Ali was more adaptable and versatile than Norton and could beat boxers that Norton couldn't beat.

A friend who is a wrestling coach told me that in college wrestling it is not uncommon to have a national champion wrestler who can't beat the second string wrestler on his own team in the squad wrestle-offs. He said that happens and it takes a good coach to understand that the guy who is losing in the wrestling room is the wrestler who is more likely to win against outside competition. I think that Norton was like that for Ali. Ali was the better boxer, but Norton, for some reason was able to beat him. Put them against other competition and Ali will perform better than Norton.

Can you give us your scorecard for Ali-Norton II? We were trying to recall exactly how it panned out.

[John Galt]

Irene wrote, "Can you give us your scorecard for Ali-Norton II? We were trying to recall exactly how it panned out."

Really, who wants to know? Somebody who knows something about boxing or just you?

[Goodnight, Irene]

C'mon. Don't be a bad sport --- show us what it is, "to be someone who knows something about the sport"

[Robinson]

I am going to re score fight two this weekend. I scored it a lil while back.
I am curious to see how I re score it.

[GranberryReturns]

First Fight

10-2 Norton

Second Fight

11-1 Norton

Third Fight

15-0 Norton

Also, Ali never won a round against Joe Frazier, Jimmy Young, and Leon Spinks.

Do us all a favor and change your name to "Granberry Leaves Forever".

Another groveler at the Altar Of Ali who abhors anything critical of his hero. If you hate free speech you should go to a nation like Cuba , China, or North Korea where it's not practiced.

[BoxBuzz]

Granberry, Why didn't Ali go to Cuba?


(Softball....please swing for the bleachers).

[jrc26]

First Fight

10-2 Norton

Second Fight

11-1 Norton

Third Fight

15-0 Norton

Also, Ali never won a round against Joe Frazier, Jimmy Young, and Leon Spinks.

Do us all a favor and change your name to "Granberry Leaves Forever".

Another groveler at the Altar Of Ali who abhors anything critical of his hero. If you hate free speech you should go to a nation like Cuba , China, or North Korea where it's not practiced.

Speak as freely as you like. I just hate mentally-challenged speech. I think Ali lost the 2nd to Norton as well, however anyone who says "Also, Ali never won a round against Joe Frazier, Jimmy Young, and Leon Spinks" is either retarded or blind, therefore they shouldn't speak. You would have an easier time convincing me you have an 18 inch cock and banged a playboy playmate.

I have never heard a single person say they thought Ali lost his 2nd fight with Frazier or his 2nd fight with Spinks and you claim he didn't win a round. You couldn't possibly believe that, but the comment is so stupid I humored you and responded. So either learn to score a fight or keep your ridiculous opinions to yourself. Congrats, you got what you wanted buddy.

[BoxBuzz]

OH jrc

hang around here long enough and you'll hear examples of all those "never heard" items you mentioned. It takes all kinds to make a boxing forum.

[hhaehre]

I have never heard a single person say they thought Ali lost his 2nd fight with Frazier

Really? I always thought even the most rabid Ali fan would have had to concede that the second Frazier fight was fairly close. If you factor in a couple of points deducted from Ali for flagrant holding the fight could easily have been scored for Frazier.

[BoxBuzz]

granberry scored it for Frazier.


Ali fought Frazier the right way in the second fight. Pretty much down to business no funny business. He even had Frazier wobbled, and the Ref needed to step in and call an early intermission to make sure the fans wouldn't have to leave early. Less than a full night of entertainment would have been bad for business.

Sort of the opposite of when they called the fight on account of darkness in the Cooper fight in order to send the glove to the seamstress and for Ali to get a good nights rest between rounds.

[hhaehre]

Ali fought Frazier the right way in the second fight.

Sure. Clutch, hold, hold, clutch, hold and hold some more.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You do hear people say the second fight was either very close, or should have gone to Frazier on occasion. While I agree Ali held mightily excessively, & should have been deducted IMO, the fact is he wasn't, so the judges are obliged to score the rounds without deductions --- & scoring that fight round-by-round, it was a competitive, but clear, Ali win. I had it 8-4, & anyone who says it was a Frazier win by a large enough margin to be called a robbery is laughing stock-material.

[hhaehre]

I agree that without any deductions (as it was) it's a win for Ali. I had it 7-5 Ali but I find it hard to discuss the fight without touching on the excessive holding. Had Ali not been alowed hold like he did, it would have been a very different fight. Even with the holding it is a reasonably close fight imo but I am the first to admit that I am never very generous to Ali when scoring his fights.

[Robinson]

I had Ali-Frazier II
116-113 Ali or
7-4-1 Ali

for those interested :P

[Goodnight, Irene]

I agree that without any deductions (as it was) it's a win for Ali. I had it 7-5 Ali but I find it hard to discuss the fight without touching on the excessive holding. Had Ali not been alowed hold like he did, it would have been a very different fight. Even with the holding it is a reasonably close fight imo but I am the first to admit that I am never very generous to Ali when scoring his fights.

Ali got a break there, but Young was never deducted points for sticking his head out the ropes, which Ali should have benefitted from.

Hardly mattered though, I suppose. Ali still got the gift.

[elmersalsa]

I'm a Ali fan, but, to me, he lost all the 3 fights with Ken Norton

[yancey]

"Had Ali not been allowed hold like he did, it would have been a very different fight." hhaehre

Good to see someone grasping the larger point.

[yancey]

I'm a Ali fan, but, to me, he lost all the 3 fights with Ken Norton

Possibly, but not good for business for Ali to lose two straight fights to Norton or anyone else.

[GranberryReturns]

Yancey and elmersalsa are the most prescient posters on this board. The acolytes of the so called GOAT have much to learn from these highly informed and persuasive gentlemen.