Paul McCloskey being listed as 'United Kingdom.'

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

This is ridiculous. You can say what you like but the fact is he is Irish and should be identified as such.

The newspapers know what they are talking about, as do the Irish Boxing Awards.

Also, I don't understand how you can argue with what Paul McCloskey says. On his website it says he is Irish, there should be no more discussion of this because it is simply a fact beyond contradiction.

He is a former British light welterweight champion, has a British passport, born in the United Kingdom, has had most of his fights in the UK - so which part of him is not British?

[slapbangwhallop]

So you think that you are right and the Irish Independent, The News of the World, the organisers of the Irish Boxing awards are wrong?

You can bet your life I am right! The journalists from the rags above know as much about boxing as I do about knitting. The rules have not changed, for a boxer to fight for a British title, he has to be a British citizen, born or naturalized. You may or may not know about Barry McGuigan who changed his nationality to fight for the Lonsdale belt and was nicknamed 'Barry the Brit' in Nationalist circles. Harry Mullan advised him against changing his nationality in fear of alienating his republican fans - which in the end proved to be unfounded.

Why is it then that Paul McCloskey is shown to be Irish everywhere except Boxrec?

Because boxrec is right and everyone else is wrong. It doesn't matter who you are - from Shinny Bayaar to Pter Oboh - you only fight for the British title if you have a British passport.

And also, are you trying to say that you know better than the man himself?

Lets deal with facts, he must have a British passport to fight for the British title - you can be Irish and British the same way you can be Scottish/Welsh/Manx and British - its not mutually exclusive.

Are you suggesting that the statement that he is Irish on his official website is a lie? Or that he is incapable of figuring out his nationality for himself?

He has got a British passport or else he would have not fought for the British title - thats all there is to it! Bennie will be on here tomorrow morning and he can clear up this unfortunate misunderstanding for you.

Is you are trying to claim he is British, please provide hard evidence for this from real sources as I have done.

I already have done. Don't worry - the grown ups will be here tomorrow to clarify everything and then you will hopefully go away!

You are not the most intelligent spoon in the fileofax are you.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you recognise that by law those born in Northern Ireland can have Irish citizenship by virtue of being born in this part of the United Kingdom?

Do you understand the difference between citizenship and nationality?

[Fingalar]

So you think that you are right and the Irish Independent, The News of the World, the organisers of the Irish Boxing awards are wrong?

You can bet your life I am right! The journalists from the rags above know as much about boxing as I do about knitting. The rules have not changed, for a boxer to fight for a British title, he has to be a British citizen, born or naturalized. You may or may not know about Barry McGuigan who changed his nationality to fight for the Lonsdale belt and was nicknamed 'Barry the Brit' in Nationalist circles. Harry Mullan advised him against changing his nationality in fear of alienating his republican fans - which in the end proved to be unfounded.

Why is it then that Paul McCloskey is shown to be Irish everywhere except Boxrec?

Because boxrec is right and everyone else is wrong. It doesn't matter who you are - from Shinny Bayaar to Pter Oboh - you only fight for the British title if you have a British passport.

And also, are you trying to say that you know better than the man himself?

Lets deal with facts, he must have a British passport to fight for the British title - you can be Irish and British the same way you can be Scottish/Welsh/Manx and British - its not mutually exclusive.

Are you suggesting that the statement that he is Irish on his official website is a lie? Or that he is incapable of figuring out his nationality for himself?

He has got a British passport or else he would have not fought for the British title - thats all there is to it! Bennie will be on here tomorrow morning and he can clear up this unfortunate misunderstanding for you.

Is you are trying to claim he is British, please provide hard evidence for this from real sources as I have done.

I already have done. Don't worry - the grown ups will be here tomorrow to clarify everything and then you will hopefully go away!

Oh, I see. Could you please contact Paul then and tell him that his website is wrong and tell him that he doesn't know his own nationality?

Why are you arguing against this? For one, it is a proven fact he is Irish. And secondly, why not change it to Irish, it matters to some people and makes no difference to you?

[Fingalar]

Yes it does. If you are born there, you are a British citizen whatever passport you hold. Whether you define your nationality as that is a different matter. He can legitimately hold a British passport, that makes him a British citizen.

wrong again.

Like I said - the British and Irish Government recognise through the GFA that those born in Northern Ireland choose whether they want to be Irish OR British OR Both. Their choice. Thats the law.

But he has a British passport...

I'm not getting into this again, but what you said was wrong. He holds a passport, and was born within the UK, he is a British citizen, he can choose his nationality however he chooses, but regardless, he is a British citizen. Nationality and citizenship are two different things, as you pointed out earlier.

He hasn't got a British passport, you just made that up.

If you believe he is a British citizen, which you have no evidence for, please tell Paul that his website is wrong and he is incapable of identifying his own nationality.

[Fingalar]

This is ridiculous. You can say what you like but the fact is he is Irish and should be identified as such.

The newspapers know what they are talking about, as do the Irish Boxing Awards.

Also, I don't understand how you can argue with what Paul McCloskey says. On his website it says he is Irish, there should be no more discussion of this because it is simply a fact beyond contradiction.

He is a former British light welterweight champion, has a British passport, born in the United Kingdom, has had most of his fights in the UK - so which part of him is not British?

What is wrong with you? Are you saying the man doesn't know what nationality he is?

[slapbangwhallop]

McCloskey was British champion was born and lives in the UK and is licensed by the British Boxing Board of Control.
It's got nothing to do with the Good Friday Agreement. It is still the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Obviously he is Irish, as is anyone born on the island of Ireland. But he is not from the Republic of Ireland, he is from the UK. Until that changes, any other definition is purely dividing people along sectarian and religious lines.

now his nationality is a "sectarian and religious" issue. Good one.

"It's got nothing to do with the Good Friday Agreement" - its got everything to do with it - to say otherwise means you dont actually understand the issues being discussed my friend.

"Obviously he is Irish, as is anyone born on the island of Ireland" - simply, no.

[Fingalar]

But he has a British passport...

I'm not getting into this again, but what you said was wrong. He holds a passport, and was born within the UK, he is a British citizen, he can choose his nationality however he chooses, but regardless, he is a British citizen. Nationality and citizenship are two different things, as you pointed out earlier.

He hasn't got a British passport, you just made that up.

If you believe he is a British citizen, which you have no evidence for, please tell Paul that his website is wrong and he is incapable of identifying his own nationality.

No evidence? He fought for the British title which requires a British citizenship.

As pointed out above, you need only be eligible for British citizenship.
He has an Irish passport.

Please explain to me how you can be right about this and Paul McCloskey can be wrong.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

You are not the most intelligent spoon in the fileofax are you.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you recognise that by law those born in Northern Ireland can have Irish citizenship by virtue of being born in this part of the United Kingdom?

Do you understand the difference between citizenship and nationality?

Leonard - as unintelligent as I am - I still understand that given the choice - Paul McCloskey decided to retain his British nationality and thus thats why he ended up fighting for the British title. It's really that simple! He could have chose to be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland but he obviously didn't as he would have been ineligible to fight for the British title. (unless he has two passports) Now, I hope that clears everything up and we don't have to go another 17 pages to educate you!

[Fingalar]

You are not the most intelligent spoon in the fileofax are you.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you recognise that by law those born in Northern Ireland can have Irish citizenship by virtue of being born in this part of the United Kingdom?

Do you understand the difference between citizenship and nationality?

Leonard - as unintelligent as I am - I still understand that given the choice - Paul McCloskey decided to retain his British nationality and thus thats why he ended up fighting for the British title. It's really that simple! He could have chose to be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland but he obviously didn't as he would have been ineligible to fight for the British title. (unless he has two passports) Now, I hope that clears everything up and we don't have to go another 17 pages to educate you!

Please send this to Paul McCloskey then and tell him that he doesn't know his own nationality.
This is ridiculous.

[forcefraser]

I have been informed by a very good source, that Mcloskey owns and often wears, a pair of Union Jack briefs.

Where the hell does that leave us in this discussion?

[slapbangwhallop]

Yes it does. If you are born there, you are a British citizen whatever passport you hold. Whether you define your nationality as that is a different matter. He can legitimately hold a British passport, that makes him a British citizen.

wrong again.

Like I said - the British and Irish Government recognise through the GFA that those born in Northern Ireland choose whether they want to be Irish OR British OR Both. Their choice. Thats the law.

But he has a British passport...

I'm not getting into this again, but what you said was wrong. He holds a passport, and was born within the UK, he is a British citizen, he can choose his nationality however he chooses, but regardless, he is a British citizen. Nationality and citizenship are two different things, as you pointed out earlier.

No what I said isnt wrong actually. Let me break it down.

Being born in Northern Ireland doesnt automatically make you a British citizen.

Being born in Northern Ireland does automatically give you the option to opt for British citizenship - or Irish - or both.

Citizenship is often a measure of nationality - but when someone if forced to take out a passport to qualify to fight for an title then I would say that I would little stow in its claim.

Nationality and citizenship after different entities. Nationality refers mainly to the country you identify most with - in this case I think it is pretty obvious that McCloskey identifies with being Irish.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

As pointed out above, you need only be eligible for British citizenship.
He has an Irish passport.

Now you are wrong - Barry McGuigan had to change his Irish nationality to fight for the British title - you can read all about it in 'leave the fighting to McGuigan' by Jim Sheridan.

Every Irish boxer who has held Irish citizenship and fought for the British title has changed their nationality.

It is the same for every boxer who fights for the British title - Shinny Bayaar is from Outer Mongolia and a proud British champion and also has a British passport.

[Fingalar]

As pointed out above, you need only be eligible for British citizenship.
He has an Irish passport.

Please explain to me how you can be right about this and Paul McCloskey can be wrong.

What poster are you?

And how can I be right and him wrong? By way of evidence. He can choose his nationality as he chooses, which I have stated, but he has to be a British citizen to fight for the British title, which he is by birth, being born in the UK. Whether he indentifies as Irish is another matter, he is, and will always be a British citizen in out law. As pointed out though, several times, nationality and citizenship are two DIFFERENT things.

No, he is not a British citizen. He is an Irish citizen.

I can't believe that are actually trying to say that he is wrong about his own nationality. Why don't I just call you an Austrailian or a Nigerian or a Pole?

[Fingalar]

I have been informed by a very good source, that Mcloskey owns and often wears, a pair of Union Jack briefs.

Where the hell does that leave us in this discussion?

That's just a lie to amuse yourself.

[BigEars]

You are not the most intelligent spoon in the fileofax are you.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you recognise that by law those born in Northern Ireland can have Irish citizenship by virtue of being born in this part of the United Kingdom?

Do you understand the difference between citizenship and nationality?

Leonard - as unintelligent as I am - I still understand that given the choice - Paul McCloskey decided to retain his British nationality and thus thats why he ended up fighting for the British title. It's really that simple! He could have chose to be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland but he obviously didn't as he would have been ineligible to fight for the British title. (unless he has two passports) Now, I hope that clears everything up and we don't have to go another 17 pages to educate you!

I'll just go get my Republic of Ireland passport.........woops, it doesn't exist. There is merely only an Irish passport.
As far as I'm aware as stated above you do not actually have to possess a British passport to fight for the British title, just be eligible for one.
Which would in no way shape or form prove McCloskey has one, and even if he did there's a very, very strong probability he has an irish one aswell.

A lot of fighters from Northern Ireland fight for the British title because they are proud to be British, and quite a lot of other fighters from Northern Ireland fight for the British title because it is a good standard and will enhance their career in terms of purses and stading(European, WBC etc). Now that may not be what British posters want to hear but it's the truth, not all fighter who fight for the British title actually consider themselves British.

[slapbangwhallop]

You are not the most intelligent spoon in the fileofax are you.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you recognise that by law those born in Northern Ireland can have Irish citizenship by virtue of being born in this part of the United Kingdom?

Do you understand the difference between citizenship and nationality?

Leonard - as unintelligent as I am - I still understand that given the choice - Paul McCloskey decided to retain his British nationality and thus thats why he ended up fighting for the British title. It's really that simple! He could have chose to be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland but he obviously didn't as he would have been ineligible to fight for the British title. (unless he has two passports) Now, I hope that clears everything up and we don't have to go another 17 pages to educate you!

Again.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you recognise that by law those born in Northern Ireland can have Irish citizenship by virtue of being born in this part of the United Kingdom?

Do you understand the difference between citizenship and nationality?

Now if you want we can troll for "17 pages" or you can attempt to drag this out of the gutter.

[Fingalar]

What poster are you?

And how can I be right and him wrong? By way of evidence. He can choose his nationality as he chooses, which I have stated, but he has to be a British citizen to fight for the British title, which he is by birth, being born in the UK. Whether he indentifies as Irish is another matter, he is, and will always be a British citizen in out law. As pointed out though, several times, nationality and citizenship are two DIFFERENT things.

No, he is not a British citizen. He is an Irish citizen.

I can't believe that are actually trying to say that he is wrong about his own nationality. Why don't I just call you an Austrailian or a Nigerian or a Pole?

NATIONALITY AND CITIZENSHIP ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Fine. His nationality is Irish. It says on this website is United Kingdom, which is just wrong.

[Fingalar]

Again, seeing as none of you have provided ANY evidence to claim that he is British, I think the newspapers, Wikipedia and the man himself are a more reliable source.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Again.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you recognise that by law those born in Northern Ireland can have Irish citizenship by virtue of being born in this part of the United Kingdom?

Do you understand the difference between citizenship and nationality?

Now if you want we can troll for "17 pages" or you can attempt to drag this out of the gutter.

They can - you are correct.

However - Paul McCloskey has to have taken out British citizenship to be able to fight for the British title.

He holds a BBB of C license, fought mostly in the UK and has held the British national title.

Your point has very little to do with this thread, what I will do however is quote Jim Sheridan on p 114 of 'leave the fighting to McGuigan'.

Every Irish boxer who has ever foguth for the British title has taken out British citizenship: Spike McCormack and his sons, the gorgeous Gael Jack doyle, Mick Leahy, McGuigan was different. He was a catholic married to a protestant who lived on the border. In the eyes of some people, taking out British citizenship was not just a question of bread and butter. It was a political stance. They saw it as the perfect opportunity for the British to exploit McGuigan. The only problem with this theory is that initially the British turned him down.

[slapbangwhallop]

Again, seeing as none of you have provided ANY evidence to claim that he is British, I think the newspapers, Wikipedia and the man himself are a more reliable source.

As Carlos pointed out, newspapers mean fornicate all. As does wikipedia 8) but his own official website is a clear indication of his nationality.

He may hold dual nationality in order to fight for the British title but that doesnt alter the his nationality.

In my opinion BoxRec should alter the field name from "nationality" if it isnt going to describe a fighters nationality.

[forcefraser]

He`s not British, that`s for sure. Northern Ireland is not part of Britain.

There have been many footballers who have played for the Republic of Ireland, who qualified through a great uncle once having had the craic in a Dublin pub. It should work both ways and I have no problem with a 100% Irishman fighting for and winning the British title.

MORE IMPORTANTLY HOWEVER, when is he going to fight Frankie Gavin? Now that would be a cracker.

I rate Mcloskey big time, although I thought he was sloppy in his last fight. 18 momnths from now, him and Gavin would be a real treat. Gavin will probably edge it.

[slapbangwhallop]

Again.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you recognise that by law those born in Northern Ireland can have Irish citizenship by virtue of being born in this part of the United Kingdom?

Do you understand the difference between citizenship and nationality?

Now if you want we can troll for "17 pages" or you can attempt to drag this out of the gutter.

They can - you are correct.

However - Paul McCloskey has to have taken out British citizenship to be able to fight for the British title.

He holds a BBB of C license, fought mostly in the UK and has held the British national title.

Your point has very little to do with this thread, what I will do however is quote Jim Sheridan on p 114 of 'leave the fighting to McGuigan'.

Every Irish boxer who has ever foguth for the British title has taken out British citizenship: Spike McCormack and his sons, the gorgeous Gael Jack doyle, Mick Leahy, McGuigan was different. He was a catholic married to a protestant who lived on the border. In the eyes of some people, taking out British citizenship was not just a question of bread and butter. It was a political stance. They saw it as the perfect opportunity for the British to exploit McGuigan. The only problem with this theory is that initially the British turned him down.

OK so you recognise that people from the north can be Irish. Thats a step even Ian Paisley took over ten years ago.

The McGuigan situation and all those other fighters you mention from the book are a. from south of the border, and b. fought pre-GFA.

The BoxRec field states "nationality" - not citizenship. So the discussion is "what nationality is McCloskey"

Usually a passport would sort this issue out - but not always. McCloskey may hold a British passport, especially if he needed to take one out to nab a British title shot. I am sure someone with a greater knowledge of the BBBofC rule book will be able to tell us if you need to actually have a British passport or you can provide evidence that you qualify for one.

But McCloskey also may hold an Irish passport at the same time.

That still doesnt answer the "nationality" question, does it.

[slapbangwhallop]

He`s not British, that`s for sure. Northern Ireland is not part of Britain.

There have been many footballers who have played for the Republic of Ireland, who qualified through a great uncle once having had the craic in a Dublin pub. It should work both ways and I have no problem with a 100% Irishman fighting for and winning the British title.

MORE IMPORTANTLY HOWEVER, when is he going to fight Frankie Gavin? Now that would be a cracker.

I rate Mcloskey big time, although I thought he was sloppy in his last fight. 18 momnths from now, him and Gavin would be a real treat. Gavin will probably edge it.

Northern Ireland isnt geographically part of Great Britain - thats correct. The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

More players have played for England without a single drop of English blood in them that players have played for Ireland without Irish blood.

McCloskey v Gavin for the Irish title - get it on.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

OK so you recognise that people from the north can be Irish. Thats a step even Ian Paisley took over ten years ago.

The McGuigan situation and all those other fighters you mention from the book are a. from south of the border, and b. fought pre-GFA.

The BoxRec field states "nationality" - not citizenship. So the discussion is "what nationality is McCloskey"

Usually a passport would sort this issue out - but not always. McCloskey may hold a British passport, especially if he needed to take one out to nab a British title shot. I am sure someone with a greater knowledge of the BBBofC rule book will be able to tell us if you need to actually have a British passport or you can provide evidence that you qualify for one.

But McCloskey also may hold an Irish passport at the same time.

That still doesnt answer the "nationality" question, does it.

Of course! In the case of John Duddy, a man related (and named after) one of the bloody sunday victims who was a relation of his, has never fought for any of the BBB of C titles and has no interest in them - he should be classed as Irish. All cases are different though and in this paticular case. McCloskey holds a British passport, was born in a town that is classed as part of the United Kingdom (wherever you like it or not) won the British national title and has fought most of his professional bouts in the UK. He is British in every regard as far his professional circumstances are concerned - you accept that Leonard surely? What boxrec is, its a site that holds records and information about professional boxers and to state he is from the Republic of Ireland would be errornous on the part of boxrec. Now if McCloskey identifies himself as Irish and not British in his personal life then fair enough but in his professional career - he has won a British and a Commonwealth title. He holds a British professional boxing license and he has won a British national boxing title - There can be no more to it I am afraid.

Anyway - its 1am and there will be plenty more said about this tomorrow from more learned scribes than I, I am sure - so goodnight! :geek2:

NB: McCloskey didn't ever fight or win a commonwealth title - as I am sure you all know!

[Fingalar]

Again, seeing as none of you have provided ANY evidence to claim that he is British, I think the newspapers, Wikipedia and the man himself are a more reliable source.

As Carlos pointed out, newspapers mean fornicate all. As does wikipedia 8) but his own official website is a clear indication of his nationality.

He may hold dual nationality in order to fight for the British title but that doesnt alter the his nationality.

In my opinion BoxRec should alter the field name from "nationality" if it isnt going to describe a fighters nationality.

If Wikipedia means fornicate all, then why is Paul McCloskey's biography taken straight from wikipedia? Boxrec says he is Irish and he's not Irish at the same time. Its ridiculous. Also national newspapers, particularly the Irish Independent, have a lot more weight than some random guy called Carlos.