How Many Gifts Ali REALLY Received...

[Goodnight, Irene]

...so it's such the fashion for people to say Ali got X amount of gifts after beating Foreman & cementing his popularity. How many, in your opinion, were really gifts? Let's get a number set in stone --- & let's be clear about this. No, "benefit of the doubt" calls being labelled robberies --- that's bullsh!t, Ali is entitled to those & every champ gets 'em.

The number, IMO, is three...

Ali-Lyle
Ali-Norton III
Ali-Young

I don't see any gifts pre-Foreman, either. He had close fights with Jones & Norton (II), but those were fair decisions.

[BoxBuzz]

Lyle was not defending himself. No gift. Just rules. He has no one to blame but himself. IF he was being dramatic and not truly hurt he might have wanted to let the ref in on his ruse.

But if that qualifies, then you might as well add the Cooper fight where they gave him the evening off to fix his gloves.

And why leave out the Liston "paid outcomes'?

One thread here has it at 17, and I'm convinced.

[GranberryReturns]

...so it's such the fashion for people to say Ali got X amount of gifts after beating Foreman & cementing his popularity. How many, in your opinion, were really gifts? Let's get a number set in stone --- & let's be clear about this. No, "benefit of the doubt" calls being labelled robberies --- that's bullsh!t, Ali is entitled to those & every champ gets 'em.

The number, IMO, is three...

Ali-Lyle
Ali-Norton III
Ali-Young

I don't see any gifts pre-Foreman, either. He had close fights with Jones & Norton (II), but those were fair decisions.

The list of non gifts would be considerably shorter.

Some gifts

Evangelista-Evangelista outworked him.
Shavers- Made all the meaningful punches
Spinks 2- A lot of holding
Frazier 2-See Spinks 2
Chuvalo 1 - Chuvalo really worked his body
Chuvalo2-Chuvalo really worked his body

[dempseyfire]

Ali-Lyle was more than fair . . .Lyle not only didn't fire a punch for about 20+ seconds, but he was getting his head snapped back and he wobbled against the ropes, what is the ref supposed to do, wait until he's getting nailed with only the ropes holding him up a la Mercer-Morrison?

[Darling]

Ali got a gift vs Lyle????????

[Goodnight, Irene]

As I continue to say, & as even some of the Ali fans have conceded in the past...

If Lyle & Ali reversed positions, would the fight be stopped?

There is only once answer, & that's a giant, resounding, Fvck no! --- & anyone who claims to think otherwise is full of it.

In any event, this isn't the thread's point. I asked how many gifts Ali (who is said by haters to have received many) was given in everyone's eyes. Thus far, not one person has addressed the thread topic.

[jrc26]

...so it's such the fashion for people to say Ali got X amount of gifts after beating Foreman & cementing his popularity. How many, in your opinion, were really gifts? Let's get a number set in stone --- & let's be clear about this. No, "benefit of the doubt" calls being labelled robberies --- that's bullsh!t, Ali is entitled to those & every champ gets 'em.

The number, IMO, is three...

Ali-Lyle
Ali-Norton III
Ali-Young

I don't see any gifts pre-Foreman, either. He had close fights with Jones & Norton (II), but those were fair decisions.

The list of non gifts would be considerably shorter.

Some gifts

Evangelista-Evangelista outworked him.
Shavers- Made all the meaningful punches
Spinks 2- A lot of holding
Frazier 2-See Spinks 2
Chuvalo 1 - Chuvalo really worked his body
Chuvalo2-Chuvalo really worked his body

OMFG GO AWAYYYYYY. Is your only ambition in life, or at least on this message board, to bash Ali? Not only that but just be absolutely ridiculous about it. If you think Shavers, Frazier II, or Spinks II were gifts then you have NO CLUE how to score boxing. He won WIDE unanimous decisions against Evangelista and Spinks. They weren't even close. There are only 2 options here: either not even you believe what you are saying, or you are a pure idiot.

Find something better to do than repeat your ridiculous claims that Ali actually lost all of the wide UD fights that nobody else on the planet, including his opponent thought he lost. Did you even watch the 2nd Spinks fight? Spinks got his ass kicked and walked to his corner as such when the bell rang. If he beat Ali then why didn't he raise his hands like he did in the first fight?

[jrc26]

Lyle was not defending himself. No gift. Just rules. He has no one to blame but himself. IF he was being dramatic and not truly hurt he might have wanted to let the ref in on his ruse.

But if that qualifies, then you might as well add the Cooper fight where they gave him the evening off to fix his gloves.

And why leave out the Liston "paid outcomes'?

One thread here has it at 17, and I'm convinced.

If you are convinced by Granberry that Ali got 17 gifts then you need to try actually watching the fights. I don't think Granberry has, so you shouldn't take his word for it.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He is trolling.

A very sad, & uninspired imitation of the one & only...

[BoxBuzz]

jrc.....you've convinced me. I'm back in the fold. Until the granner comes up with even greater logic. Just keep a watch and bring me back from the brink when I teeter.

And Irene, you may be a lot of things, and we may not always agree, and when we disagree you may well be wrong. However you are not Bash Ali.

This I'm sure of.

[BoxBuzz]

As I continue to say, & as even some of the Ali fans have conceded in the past...

If Lyle & Ali reversed positions, would the fight be stopped?

There is only once answer, & that's a giant, resounding, Fvck no! --- & anyone who claims to think otherwise is full of it.

In any event, this isn't the thread's point. I asked how many gifts Ali (who is said by haters to have received many) was given in everyone's eyes. Thus far, not one person has addressed the thread topic.

I honestly don't think a ref would have let Ali go that route. Lyle truly looked vulnerable.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Lyle was not defending himself. No gift. Just rules. He has no one to blame but himself. IF he was being dramatic and not truly hurt he might have wanted to let the ref in on his ruse.

But if that qualifies, then you might as well add the Cooper fight where they gave him the evening off to fix his gloves.

And why leave out the Liston "paid outcomes'?

One thread here has it at 17, and I'm convinced.

Agreed, drop Lyle and add Cooper to Young and Norton III. I don't see how the Cooper fight doesn't go down as a gift.

[Goodnight, Irene]

As I continue to say, & as even some of the Ali fans have conceded in the past...

If Lyle & Ali reversed positions, would the fight be stopped?

There is only once answer, & that's a giant, resounding, Fvck no! --- & anyone who claims to think otherwise is full of it.

In any event, this isn't the thread's point. I asked how many gifts Ali (who is said by haters to have received many) was given in everyone's eyes. Thus far, not one person has addressed the thread topic.

I honestly don't think a ref would have let Ali go that route. Lyle truly looked vulnerable.

How many gifts did Ali receieve, Buzz? We all hear the hyperbole, this many or that many --- this is an attempt to get a legitimate gauge of the forum.

[BoxBuzz]

Well whatever the number may or may not be, I'm thinkin' the Lyle fight does not qualify IMHO. And I know we disagree, but I don't think the ref would have treated Ali any differently if Lyle was teeing off on him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Well whatever the number may or may not be, I'm thinkin' the Lyle fight does not qualify IMHO. And I know we disagree, but I don't think the ref would have treated Ali any differently if Lyle was teeing off on him.

That's not really the topic, though. How many fights should he have lost, according to your scorecard? Not close ones, but outright robberies?

[Jpreisser]

To contribute positively,I say 3. Cooper,Norton 3,and Young.

[dempseyfire]

Cooper is only a gift if you believe the fairy tale that Ali got an extra minute to recover between rounds . . .in reality it was something like 5-10 seconds, inconsequential.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Cooper is only a gift if you believe the fairy tale that Ali got an extra minute to recover between rounds . . .in reality it was something like 5-10 seconds, inconsequential.

How many gifts, Demps?

[dempseyfire]

Cooper is only a gift if you believe the fairy tale that Ali got an extra minute to recover between rounds . . .in reality it was something like 5-10 seconds, inconsequential.

How many gifts, Demps?

I would say only two, the Young fight and the third Norton fight as in being bad decisions in favor of Ali (of course as one can see from my other posts I think Norton III is by far the worst).

I don't think Liston II was on the level but since Sonny for whatever reason threw it on his own accord I wouldn't say Ali was given a 'gift'.

[BoxBuzz]

Dempsey...pretty reasonable take IMHO.

Some of us (I being one) would Argue that the only "gift" in the second Liston fight was Sonny's gift to himself when he seems to have decided to forgo taking an inevitable beating.

Alp mentioned and I have noticed, that there is little controversy other than the Liston Dramas in Ali's early years. (Cooper?) But with time fewer and fewer seem to express that Liston was likely to have prevailed regardless of what those drama dynamics may have been.

[elmersalsa]

I say that he had gifts in these fights:

Ken Norton II and III
Jimmy Young

He should have about 8 losses in his record...At least.

[yancey]

If you knock a man down and then FLAGRANTLY violate the rules by not going to and staying in a neutral corner while your opponent takes an 8 count, then score two more extremely quick knockdowns as a result and forcing the end of the fight under the three knockdown rule.........

Should that be considered a gift, since the referee didn't enforce the freaking rules and you were the one who benefited by it?

[GranberryReturns]

If you knock a man down and then FLAGRANTLY violate the rules by not going to and staying in a neutral corner while your opponent takes an 8 count, then score two more extremely quick knockdowns as a result and forcing the end of the fight under the three knockdown rule.........

Should that be considered a gift, since the referee didn't enforce the freaking rules and you were the one who benefited by it?

Without those violations of rules Ali would have definitely lost to the great Argentine.

[BoxBuzz]

yancey, if Oscar would have been left standing at the end, would he have won the fight in your opinion? I was thinking he'd still end up on the short end of the decision.

[SolomonDeedes]

Cooper - no. Any reasonably impartial person watching the film can see that Ali, though shaken, is a long way from being knocked out, and the myth that he was given several extra minutes to recover has been thoroughly discredited.

Lyle - no. Lyle was helpless on the ropes, making no move to defend himself. A clean, straightforward TKO.

Norton III - not really. I had Norton up by 1 point, but it was too close to be called a robbery.

Young - possibly, I was having trouble keeping my eyes open so didn't actually keep score. Still, the way I saw it there were very few clean punches struck by either man, and very few rounds clearly won. It is certainly not the one-sided boxing lesson that the anti-Ali brigade would have us believe - the commentators on the fight repeatedly described it as "very close" and never suggested that it looked like Ali's reign was coming to an end. You have to think that Young probably failed to impress the judges with his repeated tactic of turning his back on his opponent and trying to escape between the ropes.

Liston II - yes! Liston never heard a count and explained later, reasonably enough, that he didn't get up because Ali was going nuts in the centre of the ring and Liston was afraid of being hit while he tried to rise. Sure, Ali would probably have won anyway, but that KO1 shouldn't be there.