Paul McCloskey being listed as 'United Kingdom.'

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

So we can expect to see Gavin's changed to Irish when he fights in September then? You can't have your cake and eat it. Gavin considers himself and Englishman so that is what his nationality should be on Boxrec. Simple as.

If Frankie Gavin fights for the Irish title and has an Irish passport then he should be rated as Irish - I have no problem with that!

That's ridiculous.

[/quote]

Well, we can agree to disagree but if you think that a fighter who wins an Irish title and has an Irish passport shouldn't be rated as Irish on boxrec as 'ridiculous' then I am not the fool on here.

[Autobarn]

The way I see it people like you want it all ways,Irish fighters who were born in N. Ireland,fighters who were born in England but have Irish roots,Nigerians with no British blood,Mongolians,Poles,etc just label them all as British regardless of where they are from,where their loyalty lies,what their roots are Thats some desperation right there,why try to claim whats not yours?

i don't see it like that. lennox lewis is also nigerian and learned to box in canada, whom he represented in the olympics, for instance. a lot of the top manchester fighters could be whatever generation irish. at least going by their irish sounding surnames.

look at boxing in places like canada. all their best fighters are imported, apart from molitor and lemieux. pascal from haiti boxes for canada for opportunity but also went back to haiti to help during the disaster. bute and diaconu are basically heavy hitting european stylists, who can draw very impressive crowds in montreal.

personally, i don't care what nationality and citizenship mccloskey has, because i'm not really into any of the current light welterweights - they all seem a bit unexceptional to me. so mccloskey is irish this, and british that. but he also isn't british something else. is it really important?

I accept what you're saying but nationalty is important to a lot of people,some don't give a f**k what they are labelled as but others do.I don't see why anyone would have a problem with any fighter from N. Ireland being listed as Irish.

fair enough steve. i also think the marketplace has something to do with it. take macklin for example. he was manchester mexican (for the jamie moore fight), he was a brummie (for elcock), he's won and lost british title fights for a specifically british market on sky sports, when they were apparently matching the brits tough after the non fights from the previous british batch. but now his irishness is being emphasised. nothing wrong with that - watching the moore fight, i recall he has a younger brother called seamus? they did look like a little irish clan.

[Steve89]

That sentence couldn't make less sense We are talking about NATIONALITY not citizenship,they are two different things Carlos.Boxrec does not say - "Rated as - British" or "Fought for British title so must be British". It says Nationality - United Kingdom,which is incorrect.Stop arguing a point that has nothing to do with the thread topic.

na·tion·al·i·ty (nsh-nl-t, nsh-nl-)
n. pl. na·tion·al·i·ties
1. The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization.
2. A people having common origins or traditions and often constituting a nation.
3. Existence as a politically autonomous entity; national independence.
4. National character.
5. Nationalism.

His nationality is British - which he can choose unlike the vast majority of British citizens. He is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. His identity is Irish which is for him to choose - however, many people in Northern Ireland choose to be British - now I am sure the people who see themselves as Irish choose Irish citizenship - the people who see themselves as British choose British citizenship - McCloskey chose British citizenship and with that passport - he fought and won the British light welterweight title.

You say there is no such thing as 'British' but the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland is a existing political identity under the UN and their citizens are labelled as British instead of United Kingdomite - just like citizens of the Netherlands are labelled as 'Dutch' and not Netherlander. As for the boxrec ratings not having 'nationality' for the good people of Northern Ireland - most who see themselves as British anyway - English, Scottish and Welsh boxers are denied their 'nationality' on boxrec too!

If McCloskey hadn't had fought for the British title (for which he needs British citizenship)- no-one would be having this argument.

Are you just pretending to be stupid or do you really not get it?McCloskey fighting for a British title does not change his nationality.If Boxrec want to rate him as British they should change "Nationality" to "Rated As" or "Lincensed by" or something similar.You confirmed your stupidity by saying Gavin should change his nationality to Irish when he fights for the Irish title.That is all.

[slapbangwhallop]

He didn't fight for the Canadian title - this is a boxing records website first and foremost - I am 100% certain if Bute did fight for the Canadian title he would have been rated as Canadian.

So we can expect to see Gavin's changed to Irish when he fights in September then? You can't have your cake and eat it. Gavin considers himself and Englishman so that is what his nationality should be on Boxrec. Simple as.

If Frankie Gavin fights for the Irish title and has an Irish passport then he should be rated as Irish - I have no problem with that!

You do know that to fight for the British title you have to have British citizenship? Which McCloskey must have had to win the British light welterweight title? You do know that to win the IBU title you don't have to be an Irish citizen?

a. its the BUI not the IBU

b. Do you have proof that McCloskey has a British passport?

c. "he fought for a British title, he has to have a British passport" - OK, that leads us on to the eligibity for the British title - have you any proof that the qualification for the British title is not "eligibility for citizenship" as opposed to citizenship itself. My understanding is that qualification for a British title shot is the same as the Irish title i.e. eligibilty for citizenship - not citizenship itself. Please dont quote Bayaar etc as they were not automatically because of their place of birth.

d. if a fighter from Northern Ireland held both a British and Irish passport and fought for a British and Irish title - what nationality should they be listed as?

e. is the title of "nationality" an innaccurate title to describe what that field in the BoxRec record shows.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Are you just pretending to be stupid or do you really not get it?McCloskey fighting for a British title does not change his nationality.If Boxrec want to rate him as British they should change "Nationality" to "Rated As" or "Lincensed by" or something similar.You confirmed your stupidity by saying Gavin should change his nationality to Irish when he fights for the Irish title.That is all.

PAUL MCCLOSKEY HAS A BRITISH PASSPORT!

Jesus Christ!

Do you have a British passport? Or do you have an Irish passport?

There is no such thing as 'English' nationality nor citizenship - there is no such thing as the 'English' race - its an identity based on a loose geographical location where boundaries have been changing constantly throughout history up till the present day. The same goes for Scotland, Wales and yes - Northern Ireland!

If Frankie Gavin fights for an Irish title and has an Irish passport then why do you have a problem with him being RATED AS IRISH ON BOXREC?

If Frankie Gavin sees himself an Ethiopian outside his professional life then I do not give a toss - seriously!

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

b. Do you have proof that McCloskey has a British passport?

We can go onto 'do you have proof that he doesn't' but if he hasn't got a British passport/citizenship - then he will be the first boxer in around 100 years of the history of British title to win the title and not be a British citizen. I don't know for sure but I highly doubt he isn't British - best person to ask is a BBB of C steward - The Law is one - he will set you right on this.

c. "he fought for a British title, he has to have a British passport" - OK, that leads us on to the eligibity for the British title - have you any proof that the qualification for the British title is not "eligibility for citizenship" as opposed to citizenship itself. My understanding is that qualification for a British title shot is the same as the Irish title i.e. eligibilty for citizenship - not citizenship itself. Please dont quote Bayaar etc as they were not automatically because of their place of birth.

Again - The Law will set you straight on this. You need British citizenship - I think Ovill McKenzie was/or still is ineligible to fight for the British title. Bruce Scott had to wait years before he could contest the British cruiserweight title.

d. if a fighter from Northern Ireland held both a British and Irish passport and fought for a British and Irish title - what nationality should they be listed as?

Then that is up to them to contact boxrec and choose - the site shouldn't rate any boxer in two sets of national rankings as it then gets all complicated - some people have three identities and nationalities - never mind two. My main point that if a fighter fights for a British title - a title that has strict citizenship criteria - then it is no huge crime for boxrec to list the fighter as such.

[Steve89]

Are you just pretending to be stupid or do you really not get it?McCloskey fighting for a British title does not change his nationality.If Boxrec want to rate him as British they should change "Nationality" to "Rated As" or "Lincensed by" or something similar.You confirmed your stupidity by saying Gavin should change his nationality to Irish when he fights for the Irish title.That is all.

PAUL MCCLOSKEY HAS A BRITISH PASSPORT!

Jesus Christ!

Do you have a British passport? Or do you have an Irish passport?

There is no such thing as 'English' nationality nor citizenship - there is no such thing as the 'English' race - its an identity based on a loose geographical location where boundaries have been changing constantly throughout history up till the present day. The same goes for Scotland, Wales and yes - Northern Ireland!

If Frankie Gavin fights for an Irish title and has an Irish passport then why do you have a problem with him being RATED AS IRISH ON BOXREC?

If Frankie Gavin sees himself an Ethiopian outside his professional life then I do not give a toss - seriously!

You need to educate yourself. Those living in the UK have British citizenship but different nationalites, English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh.This is basic stuff Carlos.

[slapbangwhallop]

b. Do you have proof that McCloskey has a British passport?

We can go onto 'do you have proof that he doesn't' but if he hasn't got a British passport/citizenship - then he will be the first boxer in around 100 years of the history of British title to win the title and not be a British citizen. I don't know for sure but I highly doubt he isn't British - best person to ask is a BBB of C steward - The Law is one - he will set you right on this.

c. "he fought for a British title, he has to have a British passport" - OK, that leads us on to the eligibity for the British title - have you any proof that the qualification for the British title is not "eligibility for citizenship" as opposed to citizenship itself. My understanding is that qualification for a British title shot is the same as the Irish title i.e. eligibilty for citizenship - not citizenship itself. Please dont quote Bayaar etc as they were not automatically because of their place of birth.

Again - The Law will set you straight on this. You need British citizenship - I think Ovill McKenzie was/or still is ineligible to fight for the British title. Bruce Scott had to wait years before he could contest the British cruiserweight title.

d. if a fighter from Northern Ireland held both a British and Irish passport and fought for a British and Irish title - what nationality should they be listed as?

Then that is up to them to contact boxrec and choose - the site shouldn't rate any boxer in two sets of national rankings as it then gets all complicated - some people have three identities and nationalities - never mind two. My main point that if a fighter fights for a British title - a title that has strict citizenship criteria - then it is no huge crime for boxrec to list the fighter as such.

so after FIVE pages of you ballin and whingin the truth is YOU DONT KNOW!

nice one.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

b. Do you have proof that McCloskey has a British passport?

We can go onto 'do you have proof that he doesn't' but if he hasn't got a British passport/citizenship - then he will be the first boxer in around 100 years of the history of British title to win the title and not be a British citizen. I don't know for sure but I highly doubt he isn't British - best person to ask is a BBB of C steward - The Law is one - he will set you right on this.

c. "he fought for a British title, he has to have a British passport" - OK, that leads us on to the eligibity for the British title - have you any proof that the qualification for the British title is not "eligibility for citizenship" as opposed to citizenship itself. My understanding is that qualification for a British title shot is the same as the Irish title i.e. eligibilty for citizenship - not citizenship itself. Please dont quote Bayaar etc as they were not automatically because of their place of birth.

Again - The Law will set you straight on this. You need British citizenship - I think Ovill McKenzie was/or still is ineligible to fight for the British title. Bruce Scott had to wait years before he could contest the British cruiserweight title.

d. if a fighter from Northern Ireland held both a British and Irish passport and fought for a British and Irish title - what nationality should they be listed as?

Then that is up to them to contact boxrec and choose - the site shouldn't rate any boxer in two sets of national rankings as it then gets all complicated - some people have three identities and nationalities - never mind two. My main point that if a fighter fights for a British title - a title that has strict citizenship criteria - then it is no huge crime for boxrec to list the fighter as such.

so after FIVE pages of you ballin and whingin the truth is YOU DONT KNOW!

nice one.

The truth is I do know but you won't take my word for it and why should you? You will need the help of The Law to put you straight on eligibility and criteria of fighting for the British title and it will put an end this thread.

[slapbangwhallop]

The truth is I do know but you won't take my word for it and why should you? You will need the help of The Law to put you straight on eligibility and criteria of fighting for the British title and it will put an end this thread.

No what is the truth is that you have been shouting like you knew for definate that you needed to produce a British passport to fight for a British title and that that fact alone was the main determining factor of ones nationality.

Havent you made enough of an ass of yourself on this thread? For evidence just look at the guys that are supporting your ignorant illinformed view!

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

You need to educate yourself. Those living in the UK have British citizenship but different nationalites, English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh.This is basic stuff Carlos.

Thats a simple view you have there and we can go onto how national boundaries are an artificial construct and that migration in and out of different parts of planet earth have got rid of any stable identity based on race. (except for fornicating Ireland )

To make it simple - there is no such thing as English nationality on any legal document in the UK. There is no mention of 'England' on my passport even though I was born in England and it is the same for any Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish person who chooses to be a citizen of the United Kingdom.

There is no English, Scottish or Welsh ratings on boxrec - and I doubt it is because they are anti-English/Scottish/Welsh.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

The truth is I do know but you won't take my word for it and why should you? You will need the help of The Law to put you straight on eligibility and criteria of fighting for the British title and it will put an end this thread.

No what is the truth is that you have been shouting like you knew for definate that you needed to produce a British passport to fight for a British title and that that fact alone was the main determining factor of ones nationality.

Havent you made enough of an ass of yourself on this thread? For evidence just look at the guys that are supporting your ignorant illinformed view!

Well I do know because Paul McCloskey will have been the first man in British boxing history to have fought for the title and have been a non-citizen.

Have I searched his trouser pockets for his passport? No!

You'll find I am right though. Just need someone like Law to put you in your place and you can skulk off until the next time you catch someone in the British ratings who 'shouldn't be there' DD

[slapbangwhallop]

The truth is I do know but you won't take my word for it and why should you? You will need the help of The Law to put you straight on eligibility and criteria of fighting for the British title and it will put an end this thread.

No what is the truth is that you have been shouting like you knew for definate that you needed to produce a British passport to fight for a British title and that that fact alone was the main determining factor of ones nationality.

Havent you made enough of an ass of yourself on this thread? For evidence just look at the guys that are supporting your ignorant illinformed view!

Well I do know because Paul McCloskey will have been the first man in British boxing history to have fought for the title and have been a non-citizen.

Have I searched his trouser pockets for his passport? No!

You'll find I am right though. Just need someone like Law to put you in your place and you can skulk off until the next time you catch someone in the British ratings who 'shouldn't be there' DD

I'll be skulking no where - I've said from page one that I didnt know if he had a British, Irish or both passports!

You've failed to grasp the concept that nationality and citizenship are totally different and merely cling to the very flawed view that fighting for a British title means your nationality is British.

A quite retarded argument to standby but you've kept it up. Well done - it must be your squaddie training!

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

I'll be skulking no where - I've said from page one that I didnt know if he had a British, Irish or both passports!

Based on BBB of C eligibility rules - He certainly has a British passport. It hasn't changed as far as I know - the board may have done it in secret and Paul McCloskey might have been the first foreign boxer to benefit from it - I doubt it like, but who knows.

You've failed to grasp the concept that nationality and citizenship are totally different and merely cling to the very flawed view that fighting for a British title means your nationality is British.

And you seem to ignore that not only in the majority of cases are nationality and citizenship are not only linked but interchangable but in the case of McCloskey where he actually has a choice under the GFA - he chose British citizenship! And then to compound it - he fought for the British title - which is mentioned because of the strict eligibility criteria that the BBB of C has.

You seem to also ignore that boxrec is a boxing records site and up until now, provides accurate information on thousands of boxers both active and retired. As you have just said now - you don't even know if he has an Irish passport - so what are you getting your knickers in a twist about? Anything to do with Ireland and you charge in, you lunatic!

A quite retarded argument to standby but you've kept it up. Well done - it must be your squaddie training!

Unlike a fine intellectual specimen like you Leonard? There are squaddies who would buy and sell you 25 times over in the brains department, believe me! :geek2:

[dondada]

Carlos! Carlos! Carlos!

[Steve89]

I'll be skulking no where - I've said from page one that I didnt know if he had a British, Irish or both passports!

Based on BBB of C eligibility rules - He certainly has a British passport. It hasn't changed as far as I know - the board may have done it in secret and Paul McCloskey might have been the first foreign boxer to benefit from it - I doubt it like, but who knows.

You've failed to grasp the concept that nationality and citizenship are totally different and merely cling to the very flawed view that fighting for a British title means your nationality is British.

And you seem to ignore that not only in the majority of cases are nationality and citizenship are not only linked but interchangable but in the case of McCloskey where he actually has a choice under the GFA - he chose British citizenship! And then to compound it - he fought for the British title - which is mentioned because of the strict eligibility criteria that the BBB of C has.

You seem to also ignore that boxrec is a boxing records site and up until now, provides accurate information on thousands of boxers both active and retired. As you have just said now - you don't even know if he has an Irish passport - so what are you getting your knickers in a twist about? Anything to do with Ireland and you charge in, you lunatic!

A quite retarded argument to standby but you've kept it up. Well done - it must be your squaddie training!

Unlike a fine intellectual specimen like you Leonard? There are squaddies who would buy and sell you 25 times over in the brains department, believe me! :geek2:

So you admit he's a foreigner?

[Poncey]

I'm going to lock this thread because it's quite clear this is going to go round and round and round with no-one agreeing and constant breach of the rules.

I don't mind polite debate, but it's gone beyond that.

If you are unhappy with a boxer's nationality, please go to the Records forum to raise it there. Or PM JOhn.

Thanks