Who is England's Greatest Fighter and why???

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 21 Apr 2005, 21:31

To all my Englishmen!!!

who is the greatest fighter from England of all time???

is it Lennox Lewis???

Ted Kid Lewis???

or Bob Fitzsimmons???

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 22 Apr 2005, 03:33

My short list would be...

Ted Kid Lewis

Nel Tarleton

Randolph Turpin

Jack Kid Berg

John Conteh

Depends what criteria you're using I guess....could make a case for Minter, Henry Cooper, etc etc Pity Howard Winstone wasn't from England, that would have made my choice easy!

J

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 22 Apr 2005, 08:06

Didn't spot the "and why?" bit before I posted above....

Ted Kid Lewis.... all round ability, boxer, puncher, fighter, Went to USA and became a favourtite over there. Fearless, tough...

Nel Tarleton.... brilliant skills, long career - most of it with one lung

Jack Kid Berg - like Lewis, all round ability, and not afraid to go and prove himself in the US

Randolph Turpin - probably never achieved what he was really capable of had he been more focused on matters inside the ring, but he could box and punch with the best.

John Conteh - like Turpin achieved only a fraction of what he was capable of. Terrific all round fighter

I could add Jock McAvoy to the list because again he was a tough, agressive fighter who fough them all, and did Ok in the US as well. As regards Minter, I think it's all to easy to underestimate what he achieved - at his peak, he was a tough, rough, agressive box-fighter who was a match for anyone (well, nearly anyone!) - I always preferred Tony Sibson, but he falls a bit short in terms of overall achievement.

And - from the same era - Herol Graham....before he split with Ingle he was a true master. His career went off the rails after he left the Ingle camp, and Eastwood and Co tried to change his style to make him more agressive - Herol at his peak was a great fighter.

No Naaseem Hamed...never warmed to him, but had he stayed with the Ingle camp (by the way, I'm not Brendan's next door neighbour or lifelong friend!) he might have made a better overall showing in his American fights - the Kelley bout may have been xciting to watch, but it was hardly a flawless display, and from there on it was gradually downhill.

Just my opinion....

J

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 22 Apr 2005, 08:23

Lennox Lewis is the best.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 22 Apr 2005, 09:23

They say that boxing is all about styles, and part of its fascination is the vast difference of opinions that arise from these sorts of discussions. Different eras, different sytyles, etc

As far as Lennox Lewis is concerned I wouldn't see him in the Top 5 .... but I can understand why you'd have a different point of view.

While anyone would have to respect what Lewis achieved in his career (thus far!) I never saw him as a boxer of whom you'd say "Here, look at the way he holds himself, the way he moves, the speed of his combinations...and so on". Unlike Conteh, Turpin (at his best) etc

If you believe that Lewis is the best because he beat everyone he ever faced and ducked no-one, then you'd logically believe Marciano was the greatest heavyweight that ever lived... and there's a body of opinion that says he wasn't!

Anyway, I saw a poll on a Welsh Boxing site that asked "Who's the greatest Welsh boxer of all time"... Jimmy Wilde is ahead at the moment (33%), Joe Calzaghe is second at an amazing 20%, and Howard Winstone a poor third at 8%. Freddy Welsh is out there with the also rans at 2%.... Like I say, different opinions, different eras, different styles.... different audiences.

Still fun though!

J

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 22 Apr 2005, 12:15

Once again 'younger' boxing fans get stuck on acheivements ie. WORLD TITLES and such recognitions... they are only half of the FACTS...

Acheivements 'proper' belong to those fighters who were 1st Class TOP performers for years-on-end, BUT were denied or CHEATED of their chances... and that honour goes to the MOST FEARED 'middleweight' in the World, during the GREATEST period in boxing (over all), the 30s and 40s and he is England's...

JOCK MCAVOY..... hands down!!!

Alex · Post by **Alex** » 22 Apr 2005, 12:58

Hard one to call. I'd say the following deserve some consideration though: Jim Driscoll, Kid Lewis, Kid Berg, McAvoy.

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 22 Apr 2005, 13:27

*Alex* wrote:Hard one to call. I'd say the following deserve some consideration though: Jim Driscoll, Kid Lewis, Kid Berg, McAvoy.

Jim Driscoll

Hands off! He's Welsh. :P

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 22 Apr 2005, 14:00

lamphey wrote:
*Alex* wrote:Hard one to call. I'd say the following deserve some consideration though: Jim Driscoll, Kid Lewis, Kid Berg, McAvoy.
Jim Driscoll

Hands off! He's Welsh. :P

On the subject of stealing our fighters, Colin Hart who often makes me laugh with some of his boxing columns quite recently described Freddie Welsh as an Englishman, now the Welsh was used rather than his original Thomas to make it easier to know he was Welsh, and he still didn`t know.

How does somebody get to do what he did yet know very little about the game

Alex · Post by **Alex** » 23 Apr 2005, 06:11

lamphey wrote:
*Alex* wrote:Hard one to call. I'd say the following deserve some consideration though: Jim Driscoll, Kid Lewis, Kid Berg, McAvoy.
Jim Driscoll

Hands off! He's Welsh. :P

I'd had a very long day!

JC · Post by JC » 23 Apr 2005, 17:35

I've noticed Collins and McGuigan sometimes get listed when we are talking about British boxers.

Alister · Post by **Alister** » 28 Apr 2005, 06:21

By pure ring achievements, Bob Fitzsimmons gets my vote for greatest british English in history. Winning the world championship in three weight divisions is a feat few other boxers can boast about, and none of those other few were from England, or Britain for that matter.
Ted "Kid" Lewis and Jim Driscoll were also all very good, but they can't show for the same achievements as Fitz. No other Brit can.

Alister

boxerrob2005 · Post by **boxerrob2005** » 28 Apr 2005, 06:36

I would have Lennox Lewis up there. He avenged all his defeats and was a dominant champion.
Naseem Hamed could have been but by slipping into retirement and not trying to avenge his defeats ranks him lower. Still for excitiement he was one of the best worldwide.

Just out of interest if Joe Calzaghe beat the likes of Jeff Lacy and Kessler and possibly moved up and won a version of the light-heavyweight crown would you guys rate him up with the best british fighters?

He gets a lot of stick but he has remained unbeaten for so long and just needs that defining fight.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Apr 2005, 07:31

Ted Kid Lewis

Lennox Lewis

Jack Kid Berg

Its hard to look beyond those three

On the other topic (jounalism) yes it is amazing some of the glaring errors that get publicised. I wrote here (in this section of the forum) that Don Cockerill was one of the best Welsh boxers - only to be put right that he wasn't Welsh. Its wasn't that long ago that I read he beat Tommy Farr for the Welsh Heavyweight title - yes, he beat Farr - but no he was never Welsh Heavyweight champion because he wasn't Welsh.

JC · Post by JC » 28 Apr 2005, 07:44

Alister wrote:By pure ring achievements, Bob Fitzsimmons gets my vote for greatest british English in history. Winning the world championship in three weight divisions is a feat few other boxers can boast about, and none of those other few were from England, or Britain for that matter.
Ted "Kid" Lewis and Jim Driscoll were also all very good, but they can't show for the same achievements as Fitz. No other Brit can.

Alister

I agree, Fitzsimmons is my favorite of those listed and I always like to think of him as English. However I think if I was from New Zeland I'd want to claim him as a Kiwi especially as he started boxing there and never actually had a fight in England. He's one of those fighters who's nationality is hard to determine. I think he always thought of himself as Cornish.

Here's a link to few film clips of him for anyone who's not seen them yet I think there only renactments he put on after rather than the fights themselves.

http://www.fitzsimmons.co.nz/html/rareboxingfilm.html

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Apr 2005, 07:49

Yes, reading that I ammend my short list to four.

Ted Kid Lewis

Lennox Lewis

Jack Kid Berg

Bob Fitszimmons.

If I had to do it in order it will probably be.

Ted Kid Lewis

Fitszimmons

Lennox

Berg.

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 28 Apr 2005, 07:53

Wasn't Fitz a naturalised US citizen when he won his second and third World titles?

Of course there's no comparison with Fitz but what about England's other 3 weight World Champion - Duke McKenzie.

hanffro · Post by **hanffro** » 29 Apr 2005, 17:19

Ted "Kid" Lewis, but Len Harvey would be close runner-up.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 29 Apr 2005, 18:34

stujones wrote: If I had to do it in order it will probably be.

Ted Kid Lewis

Fitszimmons

Lennox

Berg.

I may have to agree with you in that one. Same order that I have in mind

stuarttempleton · Post by **stuarttempleton** » 29 Apr 2005, 22:04

I know im baiting the trap here for Lamphey, but Jim Driscoll would have been my first choice as Britains best.

Also another Brit who deserves a mention is Freddie Welsh.

Stu throws the line out for Lamph.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 30 Apr 2005, 08:56

Lennox was THE BOSS.

Name one other English fighter who was on top world champ for over a decade crushing all the top American names.

This ones easy.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 30 Apr 2005, 10:08

Would you please stop with this. There is no such thing as a great fighter from England.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 30 Apr 2005, 15:08

To our dear British friends:

I apologize (erm, I mean, apologise ;)) for the rudeness of my countryman and fellow poster Grimm - I'm afraid Grimmykins has had a rather rough week, what with his fave fighter and object of his nocturnal fantasies, Tired Ike Myson getting lots of (IMO well-deserved) stick in the Mike Tyson-ooh-baby-yes-Mike-Tyson thread on the BotP forum.

Once again, if Grimmy were feeling his normal self, he would be apologising unreservedly for his unforgivable rudeness above, but since Grimmy is feeling Grumpy I thought I'd do it for him.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 Apr 2005, 15:11

Grimm wrote:Would you please stop with this. There is no such thing as a great fighter from England.

Please grow up boy and read up on the history of boxing while you do it!.