Most underrated puncher of all time?

[orbtastic]

I remember some insane Gary delaney knock outs

His best was Agrimonda Chiponda (sp)...absolutely nailed him and his head swivelled about 180 degrees before he fell to the floor, heavily. That was in the days when delaney was boiling down to 175 though.

The two best KOs of Barrett's are Efrem Calamati & Salvatore Nardino, both look like they were shot by a sniper from row Z.

[palooka]

Ensley Bingham punched the very useful Mark McCreath that hard it was scary. McCreath looked like he'd been flung from a catapult.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Anybody know anything about Bruce woodcock?

[palooka]

Bruce Woodcock used to train a couple of hundred yards down the road; at the back of The Plough in Balby. He was very hard punching and popular but took some real punishment when he stepped up around world level. He apparently had a smashing right hand punch and was very brave; he wouldn't give in easily.

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

Anybody remember

Bummy Davis?

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

May be, too,

Rocky Marciano?

[King Carlos]

Of course, the definitive answer is Aurelio Herrera. When the topic of the hardest hitters in Featherweight history is brought up, the usual suspects (Hamed, Lopez, Arguello, Saddler, etc.) always take the spotlight away. Fact is, Herrera likely hit harder than all of them. He was still being lauded as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time by many ring historians even after the careers of such men as Jimmy Wilde, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, etc.

Which ring historians have lauded Herrera as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time?

Guys like Douglas Cavanaugh, Biddy Bishop, Tad Dorgan, Russ Newland, etc. have all rated him exceedingly highly, at or among the very top among Featherweights/Lightweights and in a pound for pound sense. Russ Newland wrote an article from first hand accounts of the old-timers around during Herrera's day.

It's all second hand info from my end, though. I chat with Cavanaugh every so often online. He has an upcoming article on Herrera due out shortly. If his previous articles are any indication, it should be a doozy. Quite the researcher is Cavanaugh.

[raylawpc]

Of course, the definitive answer is Aurelio Herrera. When the topic of the hardest hitters in Featherweight history is brought up, the usual suspects (Hamed, Lopez, Arguello, Saddler, etc.) always take the spotlight away. Fact is, Herrera likely hit harder than all of them. He was still being lauded as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time by many ring historians even after the careers of such men as Jimmy Wilde, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, etc.

Which ring historians have lauded Herrera as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time?

Guys like Douglas Cavanaugh, Biddy Bishop, Tad Dorgan, Russ Newland, etc. have all rated him exceedingly highly, at or among the very top among Featherweights/Lightweights and in a pound for pound sense. Russ Newland wrote an article from first hand accounts of the old-timers around during Herrera's day.

It's all second hand info from my end, though. I chat with Cavanaugh every so often online. He has an upcoming article on Herrera due out shortly. If his previous articles are any indication, it should be a doozy. Quite the researcher is Cavanaugh.

Thanks. But saying some historians have "rated [Herrera] exceedingly highly, at or among the very top among Featherweights/Lightweights and in a pound for pound sense," is not the same as saying he is "still being lauded as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time by many ring historians even after the careers of such men as Jimmy Wilde, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, etc.," as you stated earlier. I am not aware that any ring historian has rated Herrera as the greatest puncher of all-time pound-for-pound. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Controversial]

Joe Choynski is a good contender for this. Although he never weighed more than 176 lbs James J. Jeffries claimed no one hit him harder than Choynski did even though he had a huge 50lb weight advantage. Their fight went 20 rounds (draw) and Jeffries had one of his teeth punched through his lip !!!

Choynski also knocked out Jack Johnson in 3 rounds and held Bob Fitzsimmons and Marvin Hart to draws.

During an interview in 1940, Hall of Famer Jack Johnson reminisced about the hardest punchers he faced. "Jeffries No. 1? No, sir. Give me Joe Choynski anytime. I faced both and should know. Jefferies had a powerful wallop, but Choynski had a paralyzing punch. His left hand was a corker. He was the hardest puncher in the last 50 years, with Joe Walcott a close second. I think his left hook was even more effective than either Dempseys."

[King Carlos]

Which ring historians have lauded Herrera as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time?

Guys like Douglas Cavanaugh, Biddy Bishop, Tad Dorgan, Russ Newland, etc. have all rated him exceedingly highly, at or among the very top among Featherweights/Lightweights and in a pound for pound sense. Russ Newland wrote an article from first hand accounts of the old-timers around during Herrera's day.

It's all second hand info from my end, though. I chat with Cavanaugh every so often online. He has an upcoming article on Herrera due out shortly. If his previous articles are any indication, it should be a doozy. Quite the researcher is Cavanaugh.

Thanks. But saying some historians have "rated [Herrera] exceedingly highly, at or among the very top among Featherweights/Lightweights and in a pound for pound sense," is not the same as saying he is "still being lauded as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time by many ring historians even after the careers of such men as Jimmy Wilde, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, etc.," as you stated earlier. I am not aware that any ring historian has rated Herrera as the greatest puncher of all-time pound-for-pound. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

It's a good thing I didn't say "is" then. I said "was", around the time Newland's article came out, when he reminisced on all the stories he'd heard regarding Herrera's power.

Biddy Bishop also has an article where he rated Herrera the hardest hitter of all time.

[Brutu]

Anybody remember

Bummy Davis?

Wasnt he shot and killed trying to prevent a hold up at the bar he was at in NYC back in the 1940's?

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

Anybody remember

Bummy Davis?

Wasnt he shot and killed trying to prevent a hold up at the bar he was at in NYC back in the 1940's?

Yes

[yancey]

May be, too,

Rocky Marciano?

Yeah, I grew up hearing about Marciano's devastating one punch knockout power. All men fell before it.

But then I saw the Cockell film and another childhood myth got shattered.

However, it wasn't as bad as finding out about Santa Claus.

[Goodnight, Irene]

May be, too,

Rocky Marciano?

Yeah, I grew up hearing about Marciano's devastating one punch knockout power. All men fell before it.

But then I saw the Cockell film and another childhood myth got shattered.

However, it wasn't as bad as finding out about Santa Claus.

How would you rank his power, relative to Frazier, Yance?

[yancey]

May be, too,

Rocky Marciano?

Yeah, I grew up hearing about Marciano's devastating one punch knockout power. All men fell before it.

But then I saw the Cockell film and another childhood myth got shattered.

However, it wasn't as bad as finding out about Santa Claus.

How would you rank his power, relative to Frazier, Yance?

My guess would be that they were fairly close overall.

Rocky definitely better with the right, Joe with the left.

Both capable of one punch knockouts, but primarily attrition punchers, to my way of thinking.

I will say this. It would be unlikely that Cockell would have stayed in there with Frazier as he did with Marciano.

Maybe it is true that punching power is one of the first things to go. Maybe Rocky just had a bad night, but it just seems to me he hit Cockell with all kinds of shots that night before the thing finally, mercifully ended.

Didn't Cockell get knocked out by a middleweight in his career? Seems like I read that somewhere.

[BoxBuzz]

I think the old saying is that punching power is the LAST thing to go. Is that what you meant to say? Just checkin'.

[yancey]

I think the old saying is that punching power is the LAST thing to go. Is that what you meant to say? Just checkin'.

I thought the old saying was "first thing to go", but maybe I'm wrong and have it in reverse.

Foreman in his second version would suggest "last thing to go", I would guess.

[crusader]

I have always heard that speed and reflexes are the first to go; punching power the last.

[yancey]

I have always heard that speed and reflexes are the first to go; punching power the last.

Okay, I had it wrong.

Happens every 10 years or so.

[crusader]

Happens to all of us

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Punching power being the last thing to go is an old wives tale. More often than not it is derived from speed, which is one of the first things to suffer from aging.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Punching power being the last thing to go is an old wives tale. More often than not it is derived from speed, which is one of the first things to suffer from aging.

Right --- but it does, in fact, seem that those with great raw power & not a lot of speed retain their devastating punch for a long time.

[Ezzard]

I think there are loosely 2 kinds of hitters...

These are best shown by use of examples...

Type 1 once decribed to me as "thunder"

Is the Frank Bruno kind of guy. He's heavy handed. These guys score KDs when punches are landing on the ear, the cheek, top of the head, etc...

Then type 2 was described as "lightning"

Where the velocity of the punch catches the other guy. Guys like Ray Leonard, Moseley, Camacho could drop guys with these kinds of shots.

One thing that old writers used to discuss that you never read about now is "punch placement"... Much overlooked nowadays. But an accurate shot on the point of the chin by even a feather fisted opponent can seriously disturb your equilibrium.

The guys who derive their "power" from velocity and accuracy will see some fall off...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Punching power being the last thing to go is an old wives tale. More often than not it is derived from speed, which is one of the first things to suffer from aging.

Right --- but it does, in fact, seem that those with great raw power & not a lot of speed retain their devastating punch for a long time.

Certainly guys like Foreman did. But that type doesn't make up a long list.

[Controversial]

Punching power being the last thing to go is an old wives tale. More often than not it is derived from speed, which is one of the first things to suffer from aging.

Joe Louis being a prime example. Near the end of his career he started to go the distance or stop fighters late, a sign that his speed and combination punching wasn't what it used to be.

Even Foreman to a certain degree lost his punch. Five of his last six fights went 12 rounds, the other one went 10 rounds.