Other than Robinson, Best middle ever

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 22 Aug 2002, 13:40

Who do you think was the best middleweight ever other than SRR. Pick one or add your own.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 26 Aug 2002, 17:57

Stanley Ketchel. He came out of nowhere to rule the middles and even fought Jack Johnson. Then was murdered at 24. He probably would have ruled another five years at least.

saad · Post by **saad** » 26 Aug 2002, 20:03

I'll take Greb. He beat Mickey Walker, went 1-3-1 against Gene Tunney, beat Maxie Rosenbloom,went 4-1-1 against Tommy Loughran, and 6-0 against Battling Levinsky. Ketchel was good and so was Mickey Walker, but I've got to go with Greb.

SonnyRollins · Post by **SonnyRollins** » 27 Aug 2002, 16:54

Not only do I take Greb. I take him over Robinson.
Robinson was the best Welterweight EVER, no doubt.
But he was beatable at Middleweight.
I'll take Hagler and Monzon ahead of him as well.

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 28 Aug 2002, 11:36

I agree that Greb was better than Robinson. Over 170 fights without a loss, beat a bunch of heavyweights -including Tunney- and some top guns at other weights, including the Toy Bulldog.

If you go strictly by records and stats, Greb is probably the greatest at any weight....

ksmit · Post by **ksmit** » 30 Aug 2002, 09:32

Greb did not fight in 170 bouts without a defeat---he fought many no-decision bouts in which he did not receive an official win or loss. Yes he was never stopped in any of those bouts but he hardly went undefeated. He lost newspaper decision to the likes of Joe Borrell, Tommy Gibbons, George Chip, Mike Gibbons, Kid Norfolk, Soldier Bratfield, Billy Miske and some others. No doubt Greb was one of the best but he did not go 170 without a loss. For my money--Sam Langford was the best middleweight ever.

saad · Post by **saad** » 30 Aug 2002, 20:10

Greb fought 12 world champions and his record was 7-5-1 with 23 no contests. The popular decisions of the no contests are listed in parentheses.

George Chip 4 NC (2-1-1)
Al McCoy 2 NC (2-0)
Jack Dillon 2 NC (2-0)
Battling Levinsky 6 NC (6-0)
Mike O'Dowd 1 NC (1-0)
Mike McTigue 2 NC (2-0)
Tommy Loughran 2-1-1-2 NC (2-0)
Johnny Wilson 3-0
Gene Tunney 1-2-2 NC (0-1-1)
Tiger Flowers 0-2-1 NC (1-0)
Mickey Walker 1-0
Maxie Rosenbloom 1 NC (1-0)

19-2-2 in popular decisions of no contests.
He had at least one victory over each of these guys.
A 3 round exhibition with another champion, Frank Klaus, is not included.

Taking the popular decisions as actual decisions, Grebs record reads 26-7-3 against world champions. Not bad at all.

saad · Post by **saad** » 30 Aug 2002, 20:18

ksmit-
You've got a point with Sam Langford. Its hard to compare because he didn't get a chance to fight the white champions. He did have a lot of fights with the best black fighters, who also never got to fight the white champions. Langford fought a ton of heavweights, and from reading what other fighters thought of him, he might be the best middle ever.

Champs fought:
Joe Walcott 0-0-1
Joe Gans 1-0-0
Jack Johnson 0-1-0
Tiger Flowers 1-0 (KO in 2)
Stanley Ketchel 1 NC (Ketchel got the popular decision-probably biased)

Series against black Hall of Fame Heavyweights:
Sam McVey 3-3-4 (5 NC)
Harry Wills 2-7-0 (8 NC)
Joe Jeannette 5-2-1 (5 NC)

Its interesting to note that Tiger Flowers seemed to have Harry Greb's number. He was 2-0-1 against Greb. However, Langford knocked Flowers out in 2 when Langford was 39 years old!

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 31 Aug 2002, 10:25

Here is an interesting fact about the Langford-Ketchel fight. The promoter had the fighters agree to hold off and give the public a 6 round no-decision bout to create interest in a title bout later that year. The fighters agreed to hold back and go the distance.

Ketchel, notorious for backstabbing in these situations (he did it to Johnson), changed his mind after the first few rounds when the crowd started to boo the fighters non-effort and started swinging for the KO.

Langford just blocked and clinch and did not retaliate. Sam wanted that title shot he had been fighting for for so long way too bad to loose his temper and blow it. In the end Sam was busted up a little but he was smiling from ear to ear. He knew he could easily beat a little man like Ketchel.

Too bad for Sam, Ketchel was killed later that year before a title fight was ever arranged. I think Sam would have been too much for Ketchel, though I think ketchel was a hell of a fighter. Sam routinely beat heavyweights and was rightly feared by most heavyweights, including Jack Johnson who ducked him when he was champion.

saad · Post by **saad** » 31 Aug 2002, 17:03

6 Pack-
Thanks for the info on the Langford-Ketchel fight. I hadn't heard much about it but that seems like the scenario I would have guessed happened.

fatcity · Post by **fatcity** » 25 Sep 2002, 10:07

I d put Greb above Robinson at middleweight, Robinson lost to Fulmer, Basilo, and Lamotta (early in his career) which tends to make me think that he had a weakness against strong in fighters. Ray was great, but I think that at his best Greb would have been too strong and fast for him, just as he was for Gene Tunney. Greb outfought Mickey Walker who I think would also have a good chance against Robinson. From what Ive read of Greb many thought he would have had a chance against Dempsey. Greb was probably already past his best by the time he won the title.
Sam Langford was another awesome middleweight whom I can see beating Robinson. Also lets not forget Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore who were middleweights for quite a time. Moore certainly should have got a shot at the Middleweight title, and Charles I think went from Middleweight to Lighthevy to Heavyweight.
Id also give a peak Monzon a chance at Robinson. Monzon was a strong awkward boxer not unlike Randy Turpin in some ways.
Also I think the Roberto Duran who beat Barkley would have the style and strength to upset Robinson. I think Roberto was as strong as Fullmer and Basilo, but slicker and cannier.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 16 Mar 2003, 23:14

I see I never said who I voted for.
Like Bollocks I voted for Hagler. I also did not see many of the fighters I put on the list but I cant imagine anyone being much better than Marvin.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 16 Mar 2003, 23:34

No fighter has had a career where they did'nt struggle at times.

terap...I started a thread on this forum called "Did Hagler ever really lose". You should check that one out. It's pretty interesting.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 17 Mar 2003, 08:05

bollocks wrote:
tomato can wrote:No fighter has had a career where they did'nt struggle at times.

terap...I started a thread on this forum called "Did Hagler ever really lose". You should check that one out. It's pretty interesting.
How doI find this thread Senor Tomato? Tried searching with *Hagler lose* and got 820 hits. Hagler would never have lost this many times. Help!!

.

Maybe terap feels he should have lost that many times.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 17 Mar 2003, 08:53

Simmie Black KO1 Marvin Hagler

Other than Robinson, Best middle ever

Other than Robinson

Other than Robinson, Best middle ever

Greb

vittel

best middleweight ever