From Sullivan to Dempsey...

[Ezzard]

Can you rank the Heavyweights from this era? Give me a top ten...

1 Johnson
2 Dempsey
3 Langford
4 Jeffries
5 Jeanette
6 Corbett
7 Jackson
8 Suillivan
9 Wills
10 Gibbons

[donnellon]

Can you rank the Heavyweights from this era? Give me a top ten...

1 Johnson
2 Dempsey
3 Langford
4 Jeffries
5 Jeanette
6 Corbett
7 Jackson
8 Suillivan
9 Wills
10 Gibbons

Is it confined to your lot or can McVey, Burns, Willard, Hart, Smith, McCarty, Greb, etc be included?

[The Great John L]

Johnson, J.
Dempsey
Jeffries
Langford
Wills
Jackson, P.
Jeanette
Corbett
Sullivan
McVey
Fitzsimmons
Sharkey, T.
Burns
Childs
McCarty
Fulton
Choynski
Hart
Willard
Smith, GB
Martin, DE

[Ezzard]

Can you rank the Heavyweights from this era? Give me a top ten...

1 Johnson
2 Dempsey
3 Langford
4 Jeffries
5 Jeanette
6 Corbett
7 Jackson
8 Suillivan
9 Wills
10 Gibbons

Is it confined to your lot or can McVey, Burns, Willard, Hart, Smith, McCarty, Greb, etc be included?

whoever you like...

[Ambling Alp]

1. Johnson
2. Dempsey
3. Jeffries
4. Langford
5. Wills
6. Jeannette
7. McVey
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Corbett
10. Sullivan

* I didn't know if Tunney would qualify. He fought at the same time as Dempsey but obviously was the champion after him. He would be my #4.

[The Great John L]

1. Johnson
2. Dempsey
3. Jeffries
4. Langford
5. Wills
6. Jeannette
7. McVey
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Corbett
10. Sullivan

* I didn't know if Tunney would qualify. He fought at the same time as Dempsey but obviously was the champion after him. He would be my #4.

Damn, I left Wills off of mine because of the way my list is built in Excel. He should be just after Langford.

[Ezzard]

1. Johnson
2. Dempsey
3. Jeffries
4. Langford
5. Wills
6. Jeannette
7. McVey
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Corbett
10. Sullivan

* I didn't know if Tunney would qualify. He fought at the same time as Dempsey but obviously was the champion after him. He would be my #4.

Don't include Tunney. My next one of these will be rating the HWs from Tunney to Marciano...

[donnellon]

Johnson
Dempsey
Jeffries
Fitz
Langford

Wills
Jackson
Corbett
Sullivan
Jeanette

McVey
Sharkey
Maher
Burns
Childs

Clarke
Choynski
Hart
Willard
McCarty

Martin
Smith, Gunboat
Ruhlin
Fulton
Norfolk

PS I'd change this list every day.

[donnellon]

Johnson
Dempsey
Jeffries
Fitz
Langford

Wills
Jackson
Corbett
Sullivan
Jeanette

McVey
Sharkey
Maher
Burns
Childs

Clarke
Choynski
Hart
Willard
McCarty

Martin
Smith, Gunboat
Ruhlin
Fulton
Norfolk

PS I'd change this list every day.

I'd even change it to-day!
Missed Greb, Gibbons and Miske!

Revised 11-30;
McVey
Sharkey
Maher
Greb
Burns

Childs
Clarke
Choynski
Gibbons
Hart

Willard
McCarty
Martin
Smith, Gunboat
Ruhlin

Miske
Fulton
Norfolk
McCoy
Armstrong

[raylawpc]

1. Johnson
2. Dempsey
3. Jeffries
4. Langford
5. Wills
6. Jeannette
7. McVey
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Corbett
10. Sullivan

* I didn't know if Tunney would qualify. He fought at the same time as Dempsey but obviously was the champion after him. He would be my #4.

Don't include Tunney. My next one of these will be rating the HWs from Tunney to Marciano...

Actually, I didn't submit a list because I felt like a more modern era began with Dempsey. The era of Dempsey ushered in more uniformity in the sport, and the Walker law proved to be a model for other states in legalizing and regulating boxing. No-decision fights were on their way out. There was more uniformity in the rules, and the equipment was better. Mouthpieces started being used during Dempsey's era (although he did not use one). According to DeWitt van Court - one of the most prominent trainers in CA beginning in the 1890s - the styles of fighters began changing with the fighters who were of Dempsey's era. Film historian Jim Jacobs wrote in Ring Magazine that the celluloid evidence showed that punching with sustained and purposeful combinations began with the Dempsey-Leonard era.

[Ezzard]

I think that's good analysis. But I put Dempsey in because he was started fighting during the era of the old greats like Langford etc... I also believe that Dempsey-Willard was scheduled for 45 rounds. Am I right?

It feels like Dempsey was the bridge. At the start of his reign the Willard fight seems perfectly in tune with the old masters. By the time he fights Sharkey and Tunney it feels like a totally different era. The peak of Dempsey's career feels like it belongs to the older generation but that's just from me looking back from our position today.

Ray, your thoughts would be much appreciated as you know so much about the era.

[ben geoghegan]

I started putting a list together but because so many matches didn't take place because of the color line a lot of white fighters legacies are damaged. The top 5 are

1 Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jackson
4 Jeannette
5 Wills

[donnellon]

I normally dont include Dempsey either but most of his top wins come from the earlier era, Miske, Fulton, Brennan, Gibbons, Willard, Smith, Morris and maybe Firpo. As an aside his overall level is poor IMO when you do a list like that. Tunney too belongs in the earlier era, I believe but Sharkey straddles both with a leaning to the later period.
As to the original list I omitted two top16/20 worthies in Goddard and Slavin so there is quite a solid mumber of good fighters as we are leaving out the likes of the older Godfrey, Moran, Flynn, Root, Jim Johnson, Griffin, Kaufman, Dillon and Levinsky.

[gilgamesh]

It's great to make lists about this era to flex your boxing knowledge but really anyone's opinion here would just for the most part be speculation. As there is very little footage of any of the fighter's from this era. All we know is what we read about most of them.

[Diamond WEAPON]

It's great to make lists about this era to flex your boxing knowledge but really anyone's opinion here would just for the most part be speculation. As there is very little footage of any of the fighter's from this era. All we know is what we read about most of them.

I get so sick of hearing from this "harder men" crowd about how Sullivan would KTFO Evander Holyfield or some other such nonsense.

[raylawpc]

I think that's good analysis. But I put Dempsey in because he was started fighting during the era of the old greats like Langford etc... I also believe that Dempsey-Willard was scheduled for 45 rounds. Am I right?

It feels like Dempsey was the bridge. At the start of his reign the Willard fight seems perfectly in tune with the old masters. By the time he fights Sharkey and Tunney it feels like a totally different era. The peak of Dempsey's career feels like it belongs to the older generation but that's just from me looking back from our position today.

Ray, your thoughts would be much appreciated as you know so much about the era.

Well, thank you for the kind words. When I think about the fighters from Sullivan to Willard (I exclude Dempsey for the reasons I mentioned), I identify 5 top heavyweights:

1. Jim Jeffries
2. Jack Johnson
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Sam Langford
5. John L. Sullivan

I don’t rate these guys in any particular order.

A word about Fitz: Today, he tends to be ignored as an ATG heavyweight because, in today’s era of behemoth heavyweights, he is considered as too small. However, in his day, virtually every commentator of note thought him a truly remarkable fighter, and in many cases as the best fighter of his times. He was respected universally. He must have been one helluva fighter.

Mike Donovan considered John L. Sullivan as the greatest heavyweight of all time, and that carries a lot of weight with me, so I gave him a shout out.

[pound per pound]

Can you rank the Heavyweights from this era? Give me a top ten...

1 Johnson
2 Dempsey
3 Langford
4 Jeffries
5 Jeanette
6 Corbett
7 Jackson
8 Suillivan
9 Wills
10 Gibbons

On the ten you gave, I would say

Jeffries
Dempsey
Johnson
Langford
Fitz
Corbett
Jackson
Sullivan
Wills
Gibbons.

[donnellon]

Can you rank the Heavyweights from this era? Give me a top ten...

1 Johnson
2 Dempsey
3 Langford
4 Jeffries
5 Jeanette
6 Corbett
7 Jackson
8 Suillivan
9 Wills
10 Gibbons

On the ten you gave, I would say

Jeffries
Dempsey
Johnson
Langford
Fitz
Corbett
Jackson
Sullivan
Wills
Gibbons.

He hadn't Fitz, he had Jeanette.

[Crease]

Good topic Ezzard.

Here's mine:

1. Jack Dempsey
2. Jack Johnson
3. Sam Langford
4. John L. Sullivan
5. Jim Jeffries
6. James Corbett
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Jess Willard
9. Tom Sharkey
10. Tommy Burns

Of course, everyone's opinion is different.

[Mr E]

Based on a "who-I-think-would-have-beaten-whom-at-everyone's-absolute-peak" standard, I see it like this:

1-Jack Dempsey
2-Jack Johnson
3-Jim Jeffries
4-Sam Langford
5-Harry Wills
6-Joe Jeannette
7-Sam McVey
8-Jess Willard
9-Bob Fitzsimmons
10-Jim Corbett
11-Peter Jackson
12-John L. Sullivan
13-Luis Angel Firpo
14-Fred Fulton
15-Tommy Gibbons
16-Harry Greb
17-Billy Miske
18-Tom Sharkey
19-Frank Slavin
20-Carl Morris

Most under-rated: Jess Willard
Most over-rated: Tom Sharkey

[Ezzard]

Bump!

[Crease]

BUMP.

[Crease]

I am starting a Heavyweight tournament of 32 boxers...
8 boxers have qualified from this era.

They are:
Sullivan
Johnson
Dempsey
Corbett
Jeffries
Greb
Langford
Fitzsimmons

[Ezzard]

Just counting top 10s…points 10 to 1

Johnson 66
Dempsey 65
Jeffries 55
Langford 50
Wills 27
Corbett 24
Fitzsimmons 22
Jeanette 21
Sullivan 18
Jackson 17

[Boilermaker]

1 Jeffries
2. Johnson
3. Sullivan
4. Jackson
5. Fitzsimmons
6. Dempsey
7. Corbett
8. Wills
9. Langford
10. Goddard