Frank Bruno Discussion

[Ezzard]

The question is, was Bruno more intimidated and unsettled the second time he fought Tyson because Mike was really that bad an opponent? Or was it because of something in Bruno? I think it has to be the latter.

i don't think these are mutually exclusive, either/or questions, mate

the other factor to consider is that I don't think bruno was the same fighter vs Tyson 2nd time around, and i think he knew it.

I stand by the assertion that you'd expect a rational person to be less frightened of a terrifying confrontation the second time they do experience it. But I appreciate what you're saying.

[Counter-puncher]

The question is, was Bruno more intimidated and unsettled the second time he fought Tyson because Mike was really that bad an opponent? Or was it because of something in Bruno? I think it has to be the latter.

i don't think these are mutually exclusive, either/or questions, mate

the other factor to consider is that I don't think bruno was the same fighter vs Tyson 2nd time around, and i think he knew it.

I stand by the assertion that you'd expect a rational person to be less frightened of a terrifying confrontation the second time they do experience it. But I appreciate what you're saying.

i think you've pointed to the caveat in your own argument here.

[Ezzard]

So you do agree then that Bruno being/seeming more scared second time around is to do with Frank and not Tyson.

[Counter-puncher]

never said otherwise, CF my earlier 'really not sure if 'standard' rules for fear would apply to someone with Bruno's seemingly-fragile psyche '

[Bricks]

Brunos psyche was not fragile in his fighting days. Thats what makes the Tyson II abberation so odd.

He was a very very determined fighter, he didnt let knockout losses to Smith and Spoon deter him from seeking out Tyson the first time and genuinly trying to win.

Forget what happened after he retired, god forbid that could happen to anyone, he found out his wife had only been with him for money all his life, as soon as his career was over she left him and took his kids, he was lonely in his mansion alone having also lost his boxing career which he devoted 25 years to and suddenly couldnt do anymore, his mentor his trainer george Francis committed suicide,newspapers like the sun trying to ruin Brunos reputation, and the big mistake Frank made was starting to take mind altering drugs which will make a person depressed and weak, even if their natural disposition isnt to be like that.Thats the nature of drugs.

Frank showed once again he is a fighter and has come out stronger. He's doing well now.

[orbtastic]

did his wife leave before his behaviour got shall we say more "erratic" or did she leave as a result of that? She got a court order way back in the late 90s, something to do with spousal abuse?

He knew before the Tyson fight he was going to retire, he'd been troubled with the same problem that threatened to derail his career before it started - Detached retina.

With regards to the fight, here's him quoted on the first fight - gives you a slight insight into how that fight affected him (more so than any other):

"When I actually caught Mike Tyson," Bruno said of his first-round left hook, "and he started rocking, I thought for a minute that possibly we had him. But he came back much stronger and I certainly knew about it when he started hitting me. The hurt - not only physically, but psychologically - of losing that fight is difficult to make people understand."

I remember him being interviewed after the second fight, saying "he was on me like a harbour shark" also "I don't think he's quite as good yet as he was in 1989 . . . but he was a darn sight better than I expected."

[Bricks]

did his wife leave before his behaviour got shall we say more "erratic" or did she leave as a result of that? She got a court order way back in the late 90s, something to do with spousal abuse?

He knew before the Tyson fight he was going to retire, he'd been troubled with the same problem that threatened to derail his career before it started - Detached retina.

With regards to the fight, here's him quoted on the first fight - gives you a slight insight into how that fight affected him (more so than any other):

"When I actually caught Mike Tyson," Bruno said of his first-round left hook, "and he started rocking, I thought for a minute that possibly we had him. But he came back much stronger and I certainly knew about it when he started hitting me. The hurt - not only physically, but psychologically - of losing that fight is difficult to make people understand."

I remember him being interviewed after the second fight, saying "he was on me like a harbour shark" also "I don't think he's quite as good yet as he was in 1989 . . . but he was a darn sight better than I expected."

Yes Tyson at his peak 1986-1991 had incredible pluck and will to win. He would trade with punchers like Smith,Ruddock and Bruno and come back harder when they hit him......Frank wasnt used to that, usually when Frank nailed a guy they stayed nailed.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Since when are rationality & fear bedfellows, anyway.

[Counter-puncher]

indeed.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't see how the first drubbing didn't contribute to the horror of his ring walk for fight #2. His competitiveness in the first scrap has been romanticized to the point that Bruno had him ready to go? The fact of the matter is that Mike had been running through fighters like nothing and Bruno landing a hard shot was rare. It was an entertaining fight for what we usually got out of Mike's opponents.

How much confidence is gained from landing your best shot and then being turned around and mounted immediately in the next round?

Mike is overrated in a lot of ways, inspiring fear sure as hell isn't one of them. Lennox was scared for a few minutes until he realized he had nothing to fear.

[Bricks]

Since when are rationality & fear bedfellows, anyway.

When you tell yourself before a fight its okay to be nervous the other guy is probably just as nervous. Thats rational comprehension, control and harnessing of fear, as a certain amount of fear is usually required for the body to adapt to a fight where adrenalin can allow the body to do many things and take many things it couldnt usually.

When a fighter allows himself to think the other person is goliath and king kong rolled into one, he often has lost the fight before it has started. In many many instances the other fighter is just a normal person like them and the irrationality and consequent overload of fear often means the over scared fighter is beaten before the fight started.Thats pretty much what happened to Michael Spinks before he fought Tyson.

On the other hand in the first Bruno -Tyson fight its clearn Frank had some fear but rationally he kept it in check and it enabled him to fight hard and succesfully under adversity in the first round.

Fast forward 7 years and Bruno has been totally overwhelmed by his fear, he thinks he is facing the same Tyson who was "on him like a harbour shark" and he cant control it and thus he puts in a poor effort by his standards , just trying to survive instead of fighting.

[oliverfennell]

That's how most people experience and process fear. So, yes, some people will not react that way, even though the majority will. Now, considering Bruno was a prize-fighter he will have dealt with fear many, many times. I'm basing my conclusion on the fact that despite the slings and arrows shot on boards like these that even the most humble and limited of fighters have big ba11s compared to the man on the street.

I'm not putting forward a hypothesis that isn't well documented.

The question is, was Bruno more intimidated and unsettled the second time he fought Tyson because Mike was really that bad an opponent? Or was it because of something in Bruno? I think it has to be the latter.

You're not going to be afraid of a shark second-time around you're in the water with one?

No, that's not quite the right question.

If you're in the water with a shark for a second time it means you survived it first time. So the point is you'd be less afraid of the shark the second time. Scared? Yes. But not as scared.

I really have to disagree! I have swam in the sea many times, including in parts of the world where they may be sharks, and have not been scared of them in the slightest. But should one of them bite me? You're suggesting I'd be LESS wary of swimming in the sea after that, compared to how I feel right now, having NO fear of being bitten?

I'd suggest the fear of being bitten by a shark is much worse after you know how it feels, compared to when you have no idea.

It's true that the more experience you have of something makes you less fearful of it - so a boxer with 30 pro fights will be more relaxed than a debutant, for example - but I'd say getting beaten up by a peak Tyson is one of those exceptions.

[Roco]

Bruno at some point must have thought Tyson was washed up and could take him second time around as I recall him at ringside for one of Tyson's comeback fights laughing about how it was not Iron Mike but Rusty Mike.

He obviously realised he couldn't at some stage but I'm not entirely sure what stage that was, whether it was on the night, walking to the ring or when Tyson first landed.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Bruno at some point must have thought Tyson was washed up and could take him second time around as I recall him at ringside for one of Tyson's comeback fights laughing about how it was not Iron Mike but Rusty Mike.

He obviously realised he couldn't at some stage but I'm not entirely sure what stage that was, whether it was on the night, walking to the ring or when Tyson first landed.

...or, crazy as it seems, he may just have been talking complete sh!t at ringside?

[Roco]

Bruno at some point must have thought Tyson was washed up and could take him second time around as I recall him at ringside for one of Tyson's comeback fights laughing about how it was not Iron Mike but Rusty Mike.

He obviously realised he couldn't at some stage but I'm not entirely sure what stage that was, whether it was on the night, walking to the ring or when Tyson first landed.

...or, crazy as it seems, he may just have been talking complete sh!t at ringside?

But why take the fight then? Was Tyson his mandatory? I'm not sure that Bruno would have stepped in with Tyson for any amount of money if he had thought Tyson would have done the same again. I'm convinced that he thought he could avenge the the defeat and that Tyson was not the same man, until reality kicked in somewhere along the line.

[orbtastic]

I think from memory, he got around 3 million, with Tyson getting well over 10 mil..so that probably explains why he fought him. He wasn't going to get anything like that fighting Lewis (the mandatory).