Roy Jones Jnr

Neri · Post by **Neri** » 28 Apr 2005, 11:59

Got a chance to see Roy Jones - Montell Griffin I and II which was shown on Channel 4's KO Classics last night

The Jones left hook which finishes the fight in the rematch is amazing. so fast and powerful. So much so that it made Griffin do a klinnsmann after trying to get up

Very enjoyable

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 28 Apr 2005, 14:35

Actually, IMO the Jones/Griffin 2 KO, although impressive, is a bit weird and by no means a classic left-hook-out-of-nowhere KO like Jones had many of at 160 and 168. In Griffin 2, Jones is out for blood from the opening bell - very unusual for him, and one of the reasons the fight is so exciting to watch. By the time of the KO, Griffin is so gunshy that (contrary to everything you learn as a boxer - I believe it was sheer animal self-protective instinct at this point) when he sees Jones cocking the left he does absolutely the wrong thing - he extends his arms down as if to try to directly parry the shot, like you or I might try to do against someone coming at us with a knife. At that point Jones hesitates for a fraction of a second, then instantly reloads and lands the fight ender over Griffin's extended arms. Watch it again in slo-mo - it's very weird.

If you want the really spectacular RJJ left hooks, watch Jones/Malinga or Jones/Tate. For a great right hook, try Jones/Hill. Interestingly, the Griffin 2 and Hill fights were really the only ones at light-heavy where Jones showed the kind of one-punch KO power he had at MW and SMW. Both were early in his LHW career - I always wondered whether he simply became more cautious later, or perhaps more protective of his fragile hands.

darkstar81 · Post by **darkstar81** » 28 Apr 2005, 14:57

I saw that last night, the Briggs Botha fight was quite good too.

I agree with Eric, i actually thought Jones' second left which put Montell on the ropes was a better punch, the power was awesome considering there was almost no backswing

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 28 Apr 2005, 15:13

Eric the Viking wrote:Actually, IMO the Jones/Griffin 2 KO, although impressive, is a bit weird and by no means a classic left-hook-out-of-nowhere KO like Jones had many of at 160 and 168. In Griffin 2, Jones is out for blood from the opening bell - very unusual for him, and one of the reasons the fight is so exciting to watch. By the time of the KO, Griffin is so gunshy that (contrary to everything you learn as a boxer - I believe it was sheer animal self-protective instinct at this point) when he sees Jones cocking the left he does absolutely the wrong thing - he extends his arms down as if to try to directly parry the shot, like you or I might try to do against someone coming at us with a knife. At that point Jones hesitates for a fraction of a second, then instantly reloads and lands the fight ender over Griffin's extended arms. Watch it again in slo-mo - it's very weird.

If you want the really spectacular RJJ left hooks, watch Jones/Malinga or Jones/Tate. For a great right hook, try Jones/Hill. Interestingly, the Griffin 2 and Hill fights were really the only ones at light-heavy where Jones showed the kind of one-punch KO power he had at MW and SMW. Both were early in his LHW career - I always wondered whether he simply became more cautious later, or perhaps more protective of his fragile hands.

That lunging, long and extended hook that takes out Griffin in the rematch reminds me of a Halger right that looked the same. Might have been Hamsho 2, but I can think of a better example just can't get the name...

But, yeah, I agree - he had more spectacular hook-finishes in other fights. The ones that did Tate and Malinga really put both those guys out, and when you think of those guys' records and how durable they were... that is scary one-punch power. The Virgil Hill stoppage speaks for itself, but I also thought his boxing peformance in that fight was maybe the best I'd seen him; showed great on-the-fly thinking skills in that fight. My favourite Jones left hook, though, is probably the one on 'Punching Postman' Thornton. Just came out of absolutely nowhere at the end of the second(?) round - the speed, the sound, the effect of it were all awesome.

BTW, funny sig - you should accomodate the lisp.

I actually saw him making those comments. The way his head was bobbing it looked like he was eating the mic (from behind).

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 28 Apr 2005, 15:58

Manos de Oro wrote:BTW, funny sig - you should accomodate the lisp. I actually saw him making those comments. The way his head was bobbing it looked like he was eating the mic (from behind).

My first version had all the s's replaced by th's, but that wouldn't fit in the sig field. :(

Here's what I *really* wanted, just for the record:

"My thtyle is impetuouth, my wang is thuperior - how dare they challenge me with their primitive penitheth?

DK2112 · Post by **DK2112** » 28 Apr 2005, 17:12

On Channel 5 last night even though Guinn vs Ahunanya was in the TV guide, they showed Brock vs McCline which I was pleased about. Enjoyable fight to watch, Brock was impressive.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 29 Apr 2005, 19:20

Eric the Viking wrote:My first version had all the s's replaced by th's, but that wouldn't fit in the sig field. :(

OK, dropped a few thpathethh in the location field, but I think I got all the Tythonethque lithpineth (huh, huh, I thaid "penith" ;)) in there.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 30 Apr 2005, 01:45

Our recent memories on Jones Jr have been clouded by his defeats, but it was good to remember what a phenomenal boxer he was!!!

I wish he was born 12-15 years earlier!!!!!

jab · Post by **jab** » 30 Apr 2005, 07:23

Syntax Error wrote:Our recent memories on Jones Jr have been clouded by his defeats, but it was good to remember what a phenomenal boxer he was!!!

I wish he was born 12-15 years earlier!!!!!

I remember Hamed had very good speed too. Also he had mad power in his weight class. Roy and Hamed were excellent reflexed speedsters who went very far (Roy did much better).

But they both lacked the mental toughness to deal with defeat. Ali lost too, but he came back to win. Ali shined even when his blinding speed was much reduced.

While Roy had perhaps the best reflexes and speed from 160 to 190 ever seen, history will remember him as front runner fighter who folded when meeting with his first defeat (I am not counting the DQ).
It is unfortunate that he could not return to beat the guys who beat him, the way Alid did.

Maybe he went through too many mediocre fighters and that dulled his fighting spirit. He did have good opponents too, but he also fought way too many people who should not have been i nthe ring with him. Way too many.

I will remember him best for schooling Ruiz. He should have retired right after that fight.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 30 Apr 2005, 08:35

Who did you want him to fight then? He merely got old, it happens to everyone. He came through Tarver 1, that was adversity. He probably lost barely 15 rounds in his whole career. Not counting his defeats but including Griffin 1.

jab · Post by **jab** » 30 Apr 2005, 10:45

Are you serious left hook??

You mean you are perfectly satisfied with that decade long feasting on tomato cans? Some of whom were not even amator level?

If you are, thats ok. Roy beat them all. But does that matter? You know, when other people fight that level of bums, people can see it for the waste of time and money that is to us the fans, but why should Roy get a free pass? Is double standard the rule for Roy??

Look I was long a Tyson fan, but I can say without making excuses for it that he fought a lot of bums. I am a Valuev fan, but I can say he fought mostly bums. I can say also that Lewis fought a lot of bums and still be a Lewis fan. Hopkins, another fighter I greatly admire, as well as Toney, have had their fair share of bums. Saying that does not make me any less a fan of these gentlemen. but lets be realistic, Roy feasted on bums as well. Why give him a free pass? And yes, I know he was not the only one who did that. Hey, even Ali fought some bums. As did Rocky and Louis, other fighters I liked. Monzon did too.
But they didnt go from bum after bum after bum... making all sorts of excuses. They just took some time off. Not took a career off.

I like Roy, but definitely he could have chosen better foes. That is all I was saying.

barry · Post by **barry** » 30 Apr 2005, 10:59

The only fighters who were bum-of-the-month quality were Richard Frazier and maybe Antione Byrd, although they both were ranked No. 1 and were mandatiories, so that isn't Jones fault, he just fought who he had to to keep certain belts. The rest of Jones' resume is loaded with a hell of a lot more quality fighters than any other fighter during the last 15 years in the weight range of 160 thru 175. No other champion from 160 to 175 have faced anywhere near the same competition as Jones, while in his prime it was just overall greatness that made every Jones bout look like a mismatch, it wasn't because of lack of talent in his opposition!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 30 Apr 2005, 16:50

Are you kidding me?

I admire Roy Jones, who was a phenomenal talent, and gifted with the blend of speed, reflexes and power not seen since Sugar Ray leonard was in his pomp. Yes, he was a great fighter.

However, there is NO WAY you can tell me his reign at light heavyweight or in fact at any weight was the best ever. The light heavyweight division was very weak when Jones was campaigning, although a little of that can be attributed to Roy destroying them, he did not have the quality in his reign that the likes of Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Michael Spinks, Bob Foster all had more impressive reigns. Hell, wanna see a modern fighter who impressed at LH, well, Michael Moorer

Jones Jr was a phenomenon, but sadly, he didn't really dominate that impressively in any one division. Had he faced off against Dariusz it would have cemented his reign a bit more, and it's a slight knock the way his career has ended, but that's the way it is. Jones wasn't able to adapt his gameplan when the reflexes were no longer so reliable.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 30 Apr 2005, 18:18

I disagree somewhat - I think it is impossible to really categorically say who is the greatest fighter of all time. One fighter who is always mentioned in such esteem though is Sugar Ray Leonard (he is in most "experts" top ten of all time). Leonard is there primarily because of his signature wins over Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Benitez - apart from these fights the rest of his various reigns is pretty ordinary and there is a lot of absences in his career due to the retirements.

Jones might not have been blessed with those FOUR at his time, but look what he did to two of the fighters who could geniunally mix it with those four in terms of skills and achievments (Toney and Hopkins) - he not just beat them, he dominated them something Leonard could only Duran in their two rematches (he never dominated the other 3). Surely there is some claring opportunities that RJJ never fought (Dariusz, the three brits, The G Man) - however, this could be said of alot of other fighters, i.e. for Leonard he could have fought Cuevas, Curry, McCory, Mguabi, Graham, Colin Jones.

I'm not saying the RJJ is the greatest fighter of all time, indeed similar threats have shown I have always backed Leonard in such debates - I'm just saying there is a case for Jones. Nobody (apart from his early career loss) has dominated Hopkins, Bernard is considered one of the greatest middleweights of all time - so why not Jones?

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 30 Apr 2005, 19:09

Name names. Only Dariusz it can be said he should have fought. But then anyone who's seen both guys knows exactly how that fight would end. It wouldn't be competitive, at different ends of the scale in terms of speed and boxing ability. Roy would have painted him. I'd kill to see him face of with the other all time greats, but not that many where around. His Ruiz win will also look better after tonight.

jab · Post by **jab** » 30 Apr 2005, 19:51

Well, it could be said with a great deal of truth to it that Hopkins was very green and that Toney was seriously weight drained.

Roy took far to many easy fights against public workers.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 30 Apr 2005, 21:27

Hopkins very green at 28 - I don't buy that one. It was still the closest fight of a prime Roy career - why, because Hopkins is one of the greatest Middleweights of all time. He was even back then, just hadn't gone on to prove it.

I don't think Hopkins is any better now than he was back then, just Roy is great.

As for Toney being weight drained, again another one I don't buy. He is such a big talker that when he slips up he has to make all kinds of silly excuses. Didn't he blame being weight drained vs Montell Griffin aswell? Toney had a few non title fights during his Super Middle reign in which he would balloon in weight, but normally he would come in comfortably inside the limit (he was 11st 13 vs Jones).

barry · Post by **barry** » 01 May 2005, 01:01

>>>>However, there is NO WAY you can tell me his reign at light heavyweight or in fact at any weight was the best ever.<<<<

No one said that his reign was the best ever, as usual you need to pay more attention to what you read and respond to!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 01 May 2005, 04:47

barry wrote: No other champion from 160 to 175 have faced anywhere near the same competition as Jones, while in his prime it was just overall greatness that made every Jones bout look like a mismatch, it wasn't because of lack of talent in his opposition!

Right, so what exactly did this bit mean, you should pay more attention about what you write and how you write it if you don't want it to be misconstrued.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 01 May 2005, 04:48

stujones wrote:I disagree somewhat - I think it is impossible to really categorically say who is the greatest fighter of all time. One fighter who is always mentioned in such esteem though is Sugar Ray Leonard (he is in most "experts" top ten of all time). Leonard is there primarily because of his signature wins over Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Benitez - apart from these fights the rest of his various reigns is pretty ordinary and there is a lot of absences in his career due to the retirements.

Jones might not have been blessed with those FOUR at his time, but look what he did to two of the fighters who could geniunally mix it with those four in terms of skills and achievments (Toney and Hopkins) - he not just beat them, he dominated them something Leonard could only Duran in their two rematches (he never dominated the other 3). Surely there is some claring opportunities that RJJ never fought (Dariusz, the three brits, The G Man) - however, this could be said of alot of other fighters, i.e. for Leonard he could have fought Cuevas, Curry, McCory, Mguabi, Graham, Colin Jones.

I'm not saying the RJJ is the greatest fighter of all time, indeed similar threats have shown I have always backed Leonard in such debates - I'm just saying there is a case for Jones. Nobody (apart from his early career loss) has dominated Hopkins, Bernard is considered one of the greatest middleweights of all time - so why not Jones?

Stu you said it yourself, Ray Leonard beat Hagler, Hearns, Benitez and Duran, that alone is enough to elevate him above Jones. He also had far better skills than jones, better technique, better defence, and his comeback to beat Hagler was sensational.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 01 May 2005, 06:04

stujones wrote: Jones might not have been blessed with those FOUR at his time, but look what he did to two of the fighters who could geniunally mix it with those four in terms of skills and achievments (Toney and Hopkins) - he not just beat them, he dominated them something Leonard could only Duran in their two rematches (he never dominated the other 3). Surely there is some claring opportunities that RJJ never fought (Dariusz, the three brits, The G Man) - however, this could be said of alot of other fighters, i.e. for Leonard he could have fought Cuevas, Curry, McCory, Mguabi, Graham, Colin Jones.

Especially Colin Jones eh Stu?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 01 May 2005, 06:30

Stu, the men that leonard beat were all superior to the names on that list though, so what is your point. It's only really an issue if you can say that a fighter avoided the best of his era. Not many fighters face EVERY single possible challenger of their era. Leonard faced and beat the very best of his era and in impressive fashion too.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 01 May 2005, 07:09

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Stu, the men that leonard beat were all superior to the names on that list though, so what is your point. It's only really an issue if you can say that a fighter avoided the best of his era. Not many fighters face EVERY single possible challenger of their era. Leonard faced and beat the very best of his era and in impressive fashion too.

Well said!

I don't know how any boxing fan can be down on Sugar Ray Leonard!

He was magnificent.

He managed to beat all his peers, even though he spent large chunks of prime in retirement!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 01 May 2005, 07:52

I only used Leonard as an example in the debate, I'm not down on Leonard as I said before if you ask me to name the greatest fighters of all time Leonard would be TOP of my list.

However, I don't think Roy is too far behind I agree with Barry in that Roy should be at least in the debate. How far behind is Hopkins and Toney to the four fighters mentioned - not far behind at all if you ask me. Personally speaking, I would actually rank Hopkins above Hearns and both (now) above Benitez. They are both well and truly all time greats.

James, you argued that the fighters that Jones didn't face tarnish his legacy somewhat, and I agree but do you seriously think that Jones hadn't already beaten the two best fighters in his era in Toney and Hopkins. Not just beat them, but he outclassed Toney and gave Hopkins a bit of a lesson aswell. I used those examples against Leonard simply because most fighters miss out on fighting EVERYBODY in the devision. For most of those names I mentioned I would see them as forgone conclusions for Ray (although Curry vs Leonard 1984 would have been extremely hard to call). I think though the same applies for Jones, he beat all time greats also and we must now appreciate that - sure DM vs Jones and the Brit boys vs Jones would have been interesting but as about as difficult to call as say Leonard vs Mugabi - because thats about the class difference we are talking about.

Goz, I thought my Colin Jones comment might have raised a few eyebrows (I thought the old "Welsh bias" line that I get accused of would be mentioned). However, Jones wasn't a bad fight. He should have had the nod McCory (in the pre IBF days, meaning he should have been one of only two world champions). He also beat the man who beat Duran. So he was far from a bum. I would think a Leonard vs Jones match would be as similar for Ray's legacy as Clinton Woods is for RJJ.

I appologise for using Sugar Ray as an example, but he is one fighter who always gets labelled as "cleared up his era", I hope that I have shown that in Roy came as close to Leonard in actually doing that. Its not just Sugar Ray Leonard, but practically every fighter in mentioned in these all time great debates have some decent fighters that they never did fight in their era.

jab · Post by **jab** » 01 May 2005, 08:07

Would Roy care to fight a rematch agaisnt either Hopkins or Toney? IF Roy should fight Toney and win, he will be the only former middleweight to be heavyweight champ twice.

Would he take that fight for mega bucks? I am sure the fight will sell very well.

Who would win? Would Toney clock Roy or would Roy outrun and outpoint a very heavy Toney?

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