Fighters' changes in tactics for rematches

[Counter-puncher]

i was re-watching McCallum - Toney 2 the other day and i found it fascinating to think of the several tactical/strategic changes McCallum made 2nd time around.

when inteviewed after the first fight, McCallum when asked what he would do differently a second time round, says he would 'box more'

its bloody interesting to see how that translates into his tactics for the 2nd fight.

for one thing perhaps contrary to what you might have expected, this actually involves moving much less in the 2nd fight than in the first, where McCallum rythmically moves to both sides to the beat of his own double jab.

for another thing, what McCallum changes in terms of his 'boxing' is actually quite heavily dominated by the dark, or at least darker, arts. the low blows he always indulged in were worked perhaps more heavily than ever against Toney, who most people seem to have thought didn't like it much to the body. MM was always one to stray around or below the beltline, invariably on the ref's blindside, and against Toney he gave a masterclass of illicit (and often unacknowledged) low blows and hip-shots.

similarly, as ever McCallum was the master of subtle fouls on the inside, pushing off or nudging with shoulder and elbows to create space.

to an extent this all served as a sneak preview for what would become the late, somewhat spoiler-ish McCallum's style-his mouthpiece 'fell' out maybe 4 or 5 times, he worked the low blows, and was much cleverer about how and when he chose to go to work- gone were the days at 154 when he could be blase about taking any return fire

so one of the things i love most about this performance is the way McCallum- compared to the first fight- managed to set up shop at close range to Toney and take advantage of the long periods of low workrate from Toney. as compared with the first fight, when Toney's counters all but shut down McCallum's normal body attack, McCallum managed to get inside and throw 2's 3's and 4's to the body, albeit generally not hard shots with much leverage to them.

the key here was that he took a half-step closer, and threw the combinations mentioned above with his head somewhere around toney's shoulder, mostly precluding any chances for Toney to counter heavily upstairs, whereas in the first fight McCallum was working at his usual mid-range and ever in danger of the counters Toney was whistling around his head.

this would then be followed by a tactic McCallum almost never used before this fight, but was familiar with thereafter, hitting with or throwing a couple of shots and then falling in to clinch, which was put to great use here further highlighting Toney's own problems with workrate.

in terms of the style contrast between the two men once again this was the guy throwing fewer, bigger shots, against the guy throwing more of them, but there is a great difference in the way McCallum set about out-working Toney 2nd time around.

so, any other calls on changes in tactics or strategies for rematches?

[yancey]

Ali in his second fight with Frazier, with the chickenshit tactics of excessive holding and pulling down Frazier's head constantly, thus limiting Frazier's effectiveness inside.

[Seamus]

After Duran v Leonard I, Angelo Dundee believed Duran was susceptible to the uppercut, so he had Ray work heavily on both right and left uppercuts with a quick slip to the side.

[BoxBuzz]

Ali in his second fight with Frazier, with the chickenshit tactics of excessive holding and pulling down Frazier's head constantly, thus limiting Frazier's effectiveness inside.

Well, if you intend to beat Joe, you would need to limit his effectiveness inside. And as long as the ref allows it's a good gambit. You could probably argue that Frazier beats just about everybody, IF no one lays on him, and no one shoves him away. But all of that was allowed yancey. Can you name a champion besides Frazier....(and this is sort of interesting) that nearly ALWAYS played strictly by the rules? (I'm not sure I ever ever caught Frazier fouling anyone did you? And did any ref ever take a point from Frazier in his career?) So I'm not sure I saw Frazier ever change his tactics....other than just get more serious....E.G. Frazier Foreman II.

[alexpaterson]

Duran-Leonard came to mind when I saw this topic also Shavers-Holmes, the 1st Holmes used lots of lateral movement and in the 2nd stood his ground and occassionaly pushed Shavers back with fast combinations

[Brutu]

Joe Louis-Artuo Godoy II.

[yancey]

Ali in his second fight with Frazier, with the chickenshit tactics of excessive holding and pulling down Frazier's head constantly, thus limiting Frazier's effectiveness inside.

Well, if you intend to beat Joe, you would need to limit his effectiveness inside. And as long as the ref allows it's a good gambit. You could probably argue that Frazier beats just about everybody, IF no one lays on him, and no one shoves him away. But all of that was allowed yancey. Can you name a champion besides Frazier....(and this is sort of interesting) that nearly ALWAYS played strictly by the rules? (I'm not sure I ever ever caught Frazier fouling anyone did you? And did any ref ever take a point from Frazier in his career?) So I'm not sure I saw Frazier ever change his tactics....other than just get more serious....E.G. Frazier Foreman II.

Agree, Ali got away with it, good for him, though that doesn't make it right. Perez blew it.

As far as Frazier goes, Mercante called him one of the cleanest he ever saw.

Frazier did use his elbows to maneuver certain opponents, most noticeably in that great first Quarry fight when they were head to head. Low blows were going to occur with his body punching style. They did against Quarry and Ali, though I don't think either man thought it intentional. Quarry called Frazier rough and tough, but not dirty. I don't recall Frazier ever being penalized. Head butts, with that swarming style, are bound to happen on occasion. One certain BR contributor once suggested a third glove was needed for Frazier's head, which is a: total bullshit, b: confusion with Holyfield, or c: the bong pipe speaking again. Most likely a combo of all three.

Overall, Frazier was a clean and sporting champ. Otherwise, they would still be looking for Bugner's head.

[loco misterio]

Rocky Balboa vs. Clubber Lang II.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ali in his second fight with Frazier, with the chickenshit tactics of excessive holding and pulling down Frazier's head constantly, thus limiting Frazier's effectiveness inside.

Well, if you intend to beat Joe, you would need to limit his effectiveness inside. And as long as the ref allows it's a good gambit. You could probably argue that Frazier beats just about everybody, IF no one lays on him, and no one shoves him away. But all of that was allowed yancey. Can you name a champion besides Frazier....(and this is sort of interesting) that nearly ALWAYS played strictly by the rules? (I'm not sure I ever ever caught Frazier fouling anyone did you? And did any ref ever take a point from Frazier in his career?) So I'm not sure I saw Frazier ever change his tactics....other than just get more serious....E.G. Frazier Foreman II.

Agree, Ali got away with it, good for him, though that doesn't make it right. Perez blew it.

As far as Frazier goes, Mercante called him one of the cleanest he ever saw.

Frazier did use his elbows to maneuver certain opponents, most noticeably in that great first Quarry fight when they were head to head. Low blows were going to occur with his body punching style. They did against Quarry and Ali, though I don't think either man thought it intentional. Quarry called Frazier rough and tough, but not dirty. I don't recall Frazier ever being penalized. Head butts, with that swarming style, are bound to happen on occasion. One certain BR contributor once suggested a third glove was needed for Frazier's head, which is a: total bullshit, b: confusion with Holyfield, or c: the bong pipe speaking again. Most likely a combo of all three.

Overall, Frazier was a clean and sporting champ. Otherwise, they would still be looking for Bugner's head.

Sure is a great quote, though

[Bricks]

You cant teach an old dog new tricks and Joe Frazier tried totally new tricks in his second fight with George Foreman...........Im suprised no one on here ever talks about that second fight.........Joe tried to clown and dance and move as if he was trying to get into Georges head the way Ali did.........he even patted George on the arse at the end of the first round.....hell he even looked different with that bald head...........he still took a brutal beatdown.....george on that night was terrifying he looked like a lion the way his face and hair was.

[Crease]

Im suprised no one on here ever talks about that second fight.

Maybe because both fights had identical endings.

[Bricks]

Im suprised no one on here ever talks about that second fight.

Maybe because both fights had identical endings.

yeah and using your logic so do all fights..... in that all fights either end in a knockout, stoppage, points decision,draw, disqualification or non contest......can you beleive that crease....all those fights over the years and they only ended in those teeny weeny 6 ways.....i mean why do we bother having little things like boxing forums to discuss fights when they always have identical endings: lol

[Counter-puncher]

Tony Lopez vs Molina, 3rd fight. instead of following him round the ring and walking into leads, Lopez sat back a little more, tried to take ring centre and let Molina come to him, and unleashed a devil-storm of an attack to the body which ended up severely weakening Molina. who was far from easily weakened.

[Ezzard]

Duran-DeJesus III
Hagler-Antuofermo II

[hhaehre]

Humberto Gonzalez in the second and third fight vs. Michael Carbajal