Tyson-Holyfield 91

Shaker · Post by **Shaker** » 19 Sep 2010, 06:26

If Tyson hadn't been sent down who would have won?

dberry · Post by **dberry** » 19 Sep 2010, 07:03

This belongs in BOTP, but I'll answer it any way, Hollyfield. I think he always had Tyson's measure and I won money on him when they eventually did meet.

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 19 Sep 2010, 09:53

Holyfield. He would have beaten Tyson with ease. Tyson would not have been able to hurt Holyfield. For an indication of how beatable Tyson was, just watch the Quick Tillis fight. Tyson won by only 6 rounds to 4 on two of the three scorecards.

karim · Post by **karim** » 19 Sep 2010, 10:33

who is the legend of boxing ?

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 19 Sep 2010, 12:00

karim wrote:who is the legend of boxing ?

What difference does that make? Holyfield would have spanked Tyson, just like Buster Douglas did.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Sep 2010, 13:19

keithmoonhangover wrote:Holyfield. He would have beaten Tyson with ease. Tyson would not have been able to hurt Holyfield. For an indication of how beatable Tyson was, just watch the Quick Tillis fight. Tyson won by only 6 rounds to 4 on two of the three scorecards.

Tyson was no Bert Cooper, that's for sure.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 19 Sep 2010, 15:24

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
keithmoonhangover wrote:Holyfield. He would have beaten Tyson with ease. Tyson would not have been able to hurt Holyfield. For an indication of how beatable Tyson was, just watch the Quick Tillis fight. Tyson won by only 6 rounds to 4 on two of the three scorecards.
Tyson was no Bert Cooper, that's for sure.

Oh give it a rest, Cooper hurt an over-confident Evander for about 20 seconds, then got his ass kicked the rest of the round and the rest of the fight. Tyson could've hurt Holyfield without question (he had him hurt in the 5th round of their first actual fight) but he would've never finished him.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Sep 2010, 19:35

Tyson wouldn't finish Holyfield if he had him as hurt as Cooper did in that third round?

I object. "Holyfield always had Tyson's number" beats out, "Liston was a quitter," &, "Joe Louis had a rubbish chin," as the most ubiquitous & over-played cliche in Boxing history.

dberry · Post by **dberry** » 19 Sep 2010, 19:41

Hollyfield did always have Tyson's number, it wasn't unlisted or silent.
Seriously though, Hollyfield was a game, come forward fighter with a magnificent chin, all of the things that gave Tyson, at any time of his career, troubles. To add to this he was probably the best 'boxer' at heavy weight from that era.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:14

Depends on how many 'roids Evan Fields was doing...

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:15

It's not about anyone having someone else's number, it's about Evander being the more well rounded, complete fighter. Plus Evander showed he could beat other great heavyweights, something Tyson never did (unless you are grasping at straws and want to throw in the semi-retired Larry Holmes)

dberry · Post by **dberry** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:17

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Depends on how many 'roids Evan Fields was doing...

He has to be on HGH and maybe a little testosterone now doesn't he? He looks better physically now than when he was at his peak.

dberry · Post by **dberry** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:20

dempseyfire wrote:It's not about anyone having someone else's number, it's about Evander being the more well rounded, complete fighter. Plus Evander showed he could beat other great heavyweights, something Tyson never did (unless you are grasping at straws and want to throw in the semi-retired Larry Holmes)

Basically what I was trying to say, you've articulated it well. This is why Holly always had Tyson's measure.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:20

The same Larry Holmes who gave Holyfield problems... Holmes loves making excuses and fans seem to just eat them up. Holmes is a douchebag piece of crap and Tyson would've killed him at any point.

Tyson-Holyfield in '91 I think would've been a fantastic war but I think Mike takes out a tiring Holyfield late or wins close on points. Holyfield's mugging on the inside would always give Tyson issues but before he went to jail he was still quick and accurate enough to retaliate and catch Holyfield on the outside-coming-in as well, while Evander wasn't as physically strong as he'd eventually become starting with the Bowe rematch.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:26

Holyfield by decision in a more exciting fight than when they were older. I doubt Mike takes many rounds, but there would be more exchanging substituted for holding. He just couldn't beat Evander, not even in his own head.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:30

Diamond WEAPON wrote:The same Larry Holmes who gave Holyfield problems... Holmes loves making excuses and fans seem to just eat them up. Holmes is a douchebag piece of crap and Tyson would've killed him at any point.

Tyson-Holyfield in '91 I think would've been a fantastic war but I think Mike takes out a tiring Holyfield late or wins close on points. Holyfield's mugging on the inside would always give Tyson issues but before he went to jail he was still quick and accurate enough to retaliate and catch Holyfield on the outside-coming-in as well, while Evander wasn't as physically strong as he'd eventually become starting with the Bowe rematch.

Why would Holyfield be tiring? Mike is the one that always had stamina issues.

dberry · Post by **dberry** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:34

For once I agree with you Saad, Tyson also liked to intimidate opponents into stepping backwards on to his big punches, while he came forward using his momentum. Something Hollyfield was never going to do.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:51

dempseyfire wrote:It's not about anyone having someone else's number, it's about Evander being the more well rounded, complete fighter. Plus Evander showed he could beat other great heavyweights, something Tyson never did (unless you are grasping at straws and want to throw in the semi-retired Larry Holmes)

Well consider yourself in a small minority, then --- the vast majority picking Holyfield in this match-up always state, "Holyfield had Tyson's number," or words to that effect, meaning this fight is regularly viewed as a shoo-in Holyfield victory, which I find pretty stupid. Even if you think Holyfield wins, how he's supposed to be a lock is beyond my viewing of the two.

I would also dispute (to some extent) your claim Holyfield proved he could beat great Heavies. The only truly great one he did, IMO, was an out-of-shape Bowe (in a fight I had Bowe winning --- at best, you could say Holyfield squeaked by him in unconvincing fashion). Who beyond that? No one.Holmes was pretty respectable, & Foreman was outstanding, but not all-timer material during his comeback.

However, let me temper the above by acknowledging Holyfield's resume is light-years better than Tyson's, & I certainly consider him more proven, against better rivals.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:53

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Diamond WEAPON wrote:The same Larry Holmes who gave Holyfield problems... Holmes loves making excuses and fans seem to just eat them up. Holmes is a douchebag piece of crap and Tyson would've killed him at any point.

Tyson-Holyfield in '91 I think would've been a fantastic war but I think Mike takes out a tiring Holyfield late or wins close on points. Holyfield's mugging on the inside would always give Tyson issues but before he went to jail he was still quick and accurate enough to retaliate and catch Holyfield on the outside-coming-in as well, while Evander wasn't as physically strong as he'd eventually become starting with the Bowe rematch.
Why would Holyfield be tiring? Mike is the one that always had stamina issues.

Disagree. Holyfield's endurance, to a noticeable degree, refused to follow him from Cruiser to Heavy. He regularly took rounds off, held for extended breathers, & occasionally faded late in hard fights. I don't think his stamina is really any better than the Tyson of his hey-day, whose endurance is actually a little under-rated.

dberry · Post by **dberry** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:54

Well I'm changing mine to "Hollyfield always had Tyson's measure" just to be different.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:57

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Diamond WEAPON wrote:The same Larry Holmes who gave Holyfield problems... Holmes loves making excuses and fans seem to just eat them up. Holmes is a douchebag piece of crap and Tyson would've killed him at any point.

Tyson-Holyfield in '91 I think would've been a fantastic war but I think Mike takes out a tiring Holyfield late or wins close on points. Holyfield's mugging on the inside would always give Tyson issues but before he went to jail he was still quick and accurate enough to retaliate and catch Holyfield on the outside-coming-in as well, while Evander wasn't as physically strong as he'd eventually become starting with the Bowe rematch.
Why would Holyfield be tiring? Mike is the one that always had stamina issues.
Disagree. Holyfield's endurance, to a noticeable degree, refused to follow him from Cruiser to Heavy. He regularly took rounds off, held for extended breathers, & occasionally faded late in hard fights. I don't think his stamina is really any better than the Tyson of his hey-day, whose endurance is actually a little under-rated.

When did Tyson ever look strong late? Holyfield didn't fade against Dokes which would be the signature fight heading into this one. Nobody else pressed him until after he won the title. Even then, I fail to see any evidence of Mike being stronger down the stretch. Tyson was all holding late in fights.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:57

It's needle in the haystack-material to see someone argue Holyfield wins a good, tight, difficult-to-predict scrap which could go either way, & really, this is what I object to more than people actually picking Holyfield. This whole scenario where Holyfield just walks through Tyson's offense & shuts him down 100 out of 100, I mean, it's not for me...

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:58

dberry wrote:Well I'm changing mine to "Hollyfield always had Tyson's measure" just to be different.

Nah, I got you covered there. I said everyone states that, "Holyfield always had Tyson's number, or words to that effect" --- Devil in the details

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Sep 2010, 21:02

"When did Tyson ever look strong late? Holyfield didn't fade against Dokes which would be the signature fight heading into this one. Nobody else pressed him until after he won the title. Even then, I fail to see any evidence of Mike being stronger down the stretch. Tyson was all holding late in fights." - Saad

Hadn't said Tyson was the stronger fighter down the stretch --- just that I don't see him as having any serious disadvantage in endurance. He looked strong late against Ribalta, & also Green. Bowe showed how worthwhile a consistent & well-applied body assault could sap Holyfield's strength, & that was still during the latter's prime, for mine. He was even tired beating on Foreman in the last two rounds of their fight, which was 91.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 19 Sep 2010, 21:03

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It's needle in the haystack-material to see someone argue Holyfield wins a good, tight, difficult-to-predict scrap which could go either way, & really, this is what I object to more than people actually picking Holyfield. This whole scenario where Holyfield just walks through Tyson's offense & shuts him down 100 out of 100, I mean, it's not for me...

It would be competitive when they were younger, but 100 out of 100 is right to me. We both know where the other stands there. I was just curious as to what leads you to believe Tyson could have an advantage late in a war.

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