Nathan Cleverly.....and his perfect fight

[lurkyshaka]

I thought Nathan Cleverly looked very good the other night and really stated his case for being considered one of the best 175 fighters on the planet.

Cleverly is big and rangy with that wiry strength, he has heavy hands, good variety, solid chin and a ruck of stamina at his disposal. He is a genuine threat to any light-heavyweight in the world. He is still a work in progress, and a bit more seasoning would serve him well. But i'd not be overly fearful for him against any of the current top men at 175.

He fits in with them at this point, and i'd favour him to beat a couple of the current titlists right now. A touch more seasoning and i might pick him to beat the others aswell.

But what i wanted to address in particular on this thread was the perception that Cleverly won ugly the other night, and though he got the job done he actually fought the wrong fight and made it hard on himself....this perception has mainly come about thanks to the SKY commentary on the fight.

I completely disagree with what they thought and were saying about how Cleverly should have been using his jab, moving away from Murat and fighting to a different plan.

I think Cleverly actually fought the perfect fight to beat Murat, with conventional thinking sometimes needing to be slung out the window in boxing.

Murat was a compact, strong and aggressive fighter who wants in all his fights to be rolling forward and building momentum. He is used to dealing with opposition who are seeking to jab and move away from him. He is used to hunting them down.

But he was completely taken off his gameplan when Cleverly went right at him and sought to push him back. Murat wasn't expecting that and instead of fighting his expected and planned fight, it was he who had to try and alter things. And he wasn't really able to adjust and so Cleverly slowly ground him down for an impressive stoppage win.

Had Cleverly jabbed and moved i have no doubt that Murat would have posed a bigger threat and would have very likely hung around much longer and quite possibly for the full 12 rounds. By backing away the opponent aids Murat in implementing his plan and Murat feels comfortable.

But by looking to back him up, Cleverly took away alot of what makes Murat effective. Of course a fighter has to work within his own abilities in a realistic manner when putting together a fight plan....but in the case of Cleverly, his attributes of solid chin, combinations, and a ruck of stamina and workrate were ideal for seeking to back up and break Murat's heart.

It wasn't an easy fight, it was physically gruelling. But Cleverly's plan exposed Murat's lack of dimentions, and allowed him to break Murat down both physically and mentally till he was pulled out of the fight.

Forget exactly which round it was now(sometime around the 7th or 8th i believe) when they exchanged and Cleverly dropped his hands and roared at Murat in apparent joy at the attritional battle they were in.....i thought it was great stuff and signified the beginning of the end for visiting fighter. If Cleverly fought a 'crazy' fight plan...well it was crazy like a fox, and was in all reality the perfect plan for him to go about beating Karo Murat!

[Josh1111]

I thought Nathan Cleverly looked very good the other night and really stated his case for being considered one of the best 175 fighters on the planet.

Cleverly is big and rangy with that wiry strength, he has heavy hands, good variety, solid chin and a ruck of stamina at his disposal. He is a genuine threat to any light-heavyweight in the world. He is still a work in progress, and a bit more seasoning would serve him well. But i'd not be overly fearful for him against any of the current top men at 175.

He fits in with them at this point, and i'd favour him to beat a couple of the current titlists right now. A touch more seasoning and i might pick him to beat the others aswell.

But what i wanted to address in particular on this thread was the perception that Cleverly won ugly the other night, and though he got the job done he actually fought the wrong fight and made it hard on himself....this perception has mainly come about thanks to the SKY commentary on the fight.

I completely disagree with what they thought and were saying about how Cleverly should have been using his jab, moving away from Murat and fighting to a different plan.

I think Cleverly actually fought the perfect fight to beat Murat, with conventional thinking sometimes needing to be slung out the window in boxing.

Murat was a compact, strong and aggressive fighter who wants in all his fights to be rolling forward and building momentum. He is used to dealing with opposition who are seeking to jab and move away from him. He is used to hunting them down.

But he was completely taken off his gameplan when Cleverly went right at him and sought to push him back. Murat wasn't expecting that and instead of fighting his expected and planned fight, it was he who had to try and alter things. And he wasn't really able to adjust and so Cleverly slowly ground him down for an impressive stoppage win.

Had Cleverly jabbed and moved i have no doubt that Murat would have posed a bigger threat and would have very likely hung around much longer and quite possibly for the full 12 rounds. By backing away the opponent aids Murat in implementing his plan and Murat feels comfortable.

But by looking to back him up, Cleverly took away alot of what makes Murat effective. Of course a fighter has to work within his own abilities in a realistic manner when putting together a fight plan....but in the case of Cleverly, his attributes of solid chin, combinations, and a ruck of stamina and workrate were ideal for seeking to back up and break Murat's heart.

It wasn't an easy fight, it was physically gruelling. But Cleverly's plan exposed Murat's lack of dimentions, and allowed him to break Murat down both physically and mentally till he was pulled out of the fight.

Forget exactly which round it was now(sometime around the 7th or 8th i believe) when they exchanged and Cleverly dropped his hands and roared at Murat in apparent joy at the attritional battle they were in.....i thought it was great stuff and signified the beginning of the end for visiting fighter. If Cleverly fought a 'crazy' fight plan...well it was crazy like a fox, and was in all reality the perfect plan for him to go about beating Karo Murat!

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[JamesH]

I agree, I wasn't sure how Cleverly would get on but he looked fantastic. He gets so much leverage in his shots. There were a few times I thought he would have been better served allowing himself more room to get his shots off and make use of the reach advantage but on reflection he mixed it up well and convincingly broke him down. The impressive thing with Cleverly is that he seems to get better each time he steps up a level.

[Scrap]

Spot on, He put Murats Head where it didnt want to be.

[Counter-puncher]

I'm really not sure Clev's approach -- not bothering with the jab and coming forward throwing loads of punches -- was anything whatsoever to do with a gameplan for the night.

I think its more to do with the fact that as a fighter his style nowadays is -- coming forward throwing loads of punches and forgetting the jab.

it may work well it may work less well but i think you're giving him way too much credit for 'gameplanning' what seems to be his default and only technique, nowadays.

of course i await his next fight and will be happy to retract when he gets on his toes and circle-jabs for 12 rounds like a 6'2 ken Buchanan....

ain't gonna happen, IMO

[HomeOfBritishBoxing]

It's funny how three quarters of this forum said cleverly was chinny...his chin seemed very good, great stamina, should have boxed,used more feints and may have got murat out there earlier.

[orbtastic]

How good is Murat though?

[Counter-puncher]

It's funny how three quarters of this forum said cleverly was chinny.. .

no, they didn't.

[HomeOfBritishBoxing]

It's funny how three quarters of this forum said cleverly was chinny.. .

no, they didn't.

yes they did! go on any clev vs bomber thread and alot of people say clevs chin is suspect.

[Counter-puncher]

3/4, nonsense.

[Counter-puncher]

anyway back on topic, Clev coming forward throwing loads of punches and none of them jabs...

who'd have thought it, eh?

[Autobarn]

after all the naff clever puns on sky and then cleverly walks in, wanging his shots and catching the counters on his head.

it wasn't a good technical fight but it was hugely exciting. i feel cleverly proved his toughness, speed and stamina more than his ring generalship.

the one smart thing was forcing murat to fight at a fast pace. murat waits too long, so for cleverly to punch first and throw a lot was effective.

he needs to jab more, stop lurching forward with his head down, and to combine boxing on the outside with his busy work inside.

[Counter-puncher]

after all the naff clever puns on sky and then cleverly walks in, wanging his shots and catching the counters on his head.


he needs to jab more, stop lurching forward with his head down, and to combine boxing on the outside with his busy work inside.

1, when has he ever done anything differently to walking in an wanging shots?

2, not gonna happen i don't think. if he ain't shown much inclination to jab up till now i don't think he's changing his game for anyone.

a la Calzaghe, i think overwhelming workrate is a big part of his strength and he knows this.

[taffytoon]

Nathans plan was ALWAYS to go straight for Murat, most people expected him to work off the jab and move around a lot more. He was determind to show that he is prepared to go toe to toe and dig deep into the trenches which I believe he did. I too wish he would use his reach and height a lot more but at the end of the day he fights how he fights and thus far it has served him well, I think he is a great prospect and an asset to the sport of boxing, UK fans should now get behind him as he goes for world glory. It is getting quite repetitive all the sheep shagging chants from parts of the crowd but I suppose that comes with the territory. As far as I am concerned a British world champion is VERY good for the sport.

[ed robinson]

I'll have to watch it back but I thought the commentators were more picking up on the fact that Nathan's tactics were completely at odds with what he was being told in the corner.

When Martin Rogan went in with Matt Skelton, conventional wisdom would have been to try and box Matt. The last thing most corners would have done is send him out to instigate a war with a big, durable and hard hitting slugger. It worked though.

It's easy in hindsight but, if say Nathan had been stopped on a cut from a head clash after making it a hard, physical fight - I can imagine most would say his tactics had been foolish.

Great fight though.

[Autobarn]

after all the naff clever puns on sky and then cleverly walks in, wanging his shots and catching the counters on his head.


he needs to jab more, stop lurching forward with his head down, and to combine boxing on the outside with his busy work inside.

1, when has he ever done anything differently to walking in an wanging shots?

2, not gonna happen i don't think. if he ain't shown much inclination to jab up till now i don't think he's changing his game for anyone.

a la Calzaghe, i think overwhelming workrate is a big part of his strength and he knows this.

i think nathan could use his size and reach assests. he is young and can make changes.

cleverly is an unusual fighter, fighting out of that crouch given his size. and while he has good punch variety, his feet some to move prety much in straight lines. someone should show him jhonny gonzalez v asiku, to see how a tall fighter can box from distance and break his man down up close.

perhaps cleverly is one of those fighters who can get away with his strange style, by making up for technical issues in other areas. the matchmaking seems pretty tough, if they really are bringing in former WBA champ campillo next.

[lurkyshaka]

I'll have to watch it back but I thought the commentators were more picking up on the fact that Nathan's tactics were completely at odds with what he was being told in the corner.

When Martin Rogan went in with Matt Skelton, conventional wisdom would have been to try and box Matt. The last thing most corners would have done is send him out to instigate a war with a big, durable and hard hitting slugger. It worked though.

It's easy in hindsight but, if say Nathan had been stopped on a cut from a head clash after making it a hard, physical fight - I can imagine most would say his tactics had been foolish.

Great fight though.

I definitely think Cleverly came out with a plan of going into the eye of the storm and looking to push Murat backwards, and while that might have seemed risky tactic. It was probably the smartest thing to do because it nullified Murat to a large degree.

From memory i recall the commentary team after a few rounds calling for a more measured approach from Cleverly and for him to use more range and his jab.....But once Cleverly had opted for the aggressive approach in a bid to break Murat, i think it was very important he stuck with it. Had Cleverly after a few rounds started backing up and trying to find range, it'd have been like he was conceding ground to Murat, and with as we know so much of the sport being mental....that may have given Murat a big lift.

As it was, by standing in with Murat and never allowing Murat to back him off, he mentally took control of the fight early doors and from then on was able to physically break him up too.

I take onboard your point about cuts and Cleverly running into trouble, but thats really just the risk/reward thing. Yeah by being very aggressive Clerly opened himself up and was perhaps at more obvious risk. But the payoff was the damage both mental and physical he was able to do to Murat by going right at him, with the relentlessness and sheer pace of Cleverly really coming into its own.

Having said all that....it is important that Cleverly doesn't fall in love too much with the overly aggressive approach because it wouldn't work so well against everyone. I put the same topic up on another board and someone mentioned the interview with Tony Bellew in this months Boxing Monthly, where Tony talks about how he'd use Cleverly's aggression against him. Certainly thats something for Cleverly to ponder because he'd not want to be walking into shots off a genuine banger like Bellew. I think that fight is certainly one where a more measured approach and different plan would be better served.

Be interesting to hear Tony Bellew's view of Cleverly's showing. He posts on here so maybe he'll give us his thoughts?

[jBacca]

Who does Bomber think he should fight ? And Tony what did you think about Clev's performance ? Don't think you'd want the fight would you ?

I'd jump at the fight!!!! He should stay away from Chris Henry and Brahmer iimo, Listen Nathan is 6ft 2inch and stood toe 2 toe with a 5ft 10inch guy AGAIN!! Justblike he did with Oakey,McIntosh,Brancalion!! he will beat the lighter punching fighters as his defence won't be an issue BUT against elite punchers like the 2 guys above he'll be exposed, If people think he'll beat Pascal,Cloud or Hopkins there crazy!! he's good at what he does that's it imo..

[lurkyshaka]

Who does Bomber think he should fight ? And Tony what did you think about Clev's performance ? Don't think you'd want the fight would you ?

I'd jump at the fight!!!! He should stay away from Chris Henry and Brahmer iimo, Listen Nathan is 6ft 2inch and stood toe 2 toe with a 5ft 10inch guy AGAIN!! Justblike he did with Oakey,McIntosh,Brancalion!! he will beat the lighter punching fighters as his defence won't be an issue BUT against elite punchers like the 2 guys above he'll be exposed, If people think he'll beat Pascal,Cloud or Hopkins there crazy!! he's good at what he does that's it imo..

Ah ok thanks....think Tony is underestimating Cleverly a little, but we'll see.
Bit farther down the line a fight between the two would seem a natural. But can't see that happening anytime soon.

[Asterix]

Pushing Murat backwards was a good idea. Giving up his reach advantage was a bad idea, imo. I think he could have fought with more distance and minimised the risk. There were quite a few points where Murat could have really caught him, but Murat didn't have the quality to pull it off.

I think Cleverly needs more experience at this level before moving on to the top dogs. I would really worry about Cleverly facing a big puncher, like Braehmer or Cloud.

[ed robinson]

Hey Lurkyshaka, I think you're bang on about the danger of changing tactics midway to box more after an all out attack. A recent example that springs to mind is Darren Barker when he won the European title - he was doing well going forward but, when he couldn't shift Belgecham, he switched to work off the back foot and it just gave his opponent encouragement.

Isn't it easier and safer to try to outbox your opponent to start with and then if it doesn't work - then throw caution to the wind? It can be just as disheartening being made to miss and getting thumped with a ramrod jab as it can being set about for three minutes of a round.

[Autobarn]

i think a good boxer with his speed and strength should work on moving in, moving out, picking his spots, frustrating/outboxig the opponent and moving in - at the right time. and moving out, or taking a sidestep, beore they can clock him in the face, flush.

[Bomber 1]

he done good but all I have to say is this, If your 6ft 2inch tall why would you fight a guy 5ft 10inch tall in a phone box?? Boxing is about hitting without getting hit unless you have a punch like David Haye,Mike Tyson and so on, Clev could have made the fight so much easier but he didn't he went on the front foot and had a fantastic scrap just like with Oakey, Great for the fans but it won't be great for his career. I just hope he stays unbeaten..

[lurkyshaka]

Hey Lurkyshaka, I think you're bang on about the danger of changing tactics midway to box more after an all out attack. A recent example that springs to mind is Darren Barker when he won the European title - he was doing well going forward but, when he couldn't shift Belgecham, he switched to work off the back foot and it just gave his opponent encouragement.

Isn't it easier and safer to try to outbox your opponent to start with and then if it doesn't work - then throw caution to the wind? It can be just as disheartening being made to miss and getting thumped with a ramrod jab as it can being set about for three minutes of a round.

Fair point Ed, but i think the advantage Cleverly gained by putting Murat immediately onto the backfoot was worth the risk. He could have boxed more first, but think he felt it important to mentally take the upperhand from the get go by surprising Murat with immediate aggression.

[Counter-puncher]

lurkyshaka- genuine question- you know you're saying this swarming attack from Clev was some kind of gameplan, as opposed to him jabbing an so on?

i have to ask you when was the last time Clev did anything other than, umm, a swarming attack?

seems to me you are making out he had some kind of masterpiece of gameplanning when all he didd was... fight EXACTLY how he always fights, and I am at a bit of a loss here as to why you're making his usual tactics part of some sort of strategy.