Elmer 'Violent' Ray

[Brutu]

Here is a link to someone doing some research.

http://federalpoint.tripod.com/id76.html


I tried a little research myself earlier over at http://www.ancestry.com.
There is a Elmer J.Ray (born 1912-1913)listed in the 1920(8 yrs),1930(17 yrs) and 1935(21 yrs)of the U.S Census of Putnam County,Florida.
Putnam county borders St.Augustine County Florida were Hastings Florida is located.
I would imagine perhaps Elmer Ray grew up in a rural region and perhaps Hastings was closer then any nearby town in Putnam County,
Florida(The county seat of Putnam County is Paltaka Florida).The area is still very rural around Hastings Florida.

*One has to pay to access a look at the actual records at ancestry.com,and I only looked at the synopsis,but it sure sounds like
that may be him listed in the U.S census.

[Brutu]

The day after Elmer Ray was knocked out by Joe Louis in their third exhibition match in Houston Texas,March.16.1949,
his manager
Tom O'Loughlin had told the press that he was going
to ask Ray to retire,or else request the National Boxing Association to suspend him "for his own good".

Elmer Ray apparently returned to Palatka Florida and annouced his retirement from the ring there to the newspapers
March.28. 1949,and also addmited that he had suffered a slight brain concussion in being KO'D in the third exhibition match with Joe Louis .*
He announced that he was quitting the ring
"While I still had my health".
and was going to go back to Minneapolis,Mn, were he has a home(he had moved to Minneapolis in 1945)
and that was going to open
"A Package Shop" there.
source
ELMER RAY QUITS RING AFTER BEING KAYOED BY JOE LOUIS
Hartford Courier.March.29.1949.

*Ray had also been knocked out just 8 days prior to the third Louis exhibition in the 8th round against John Holman in Miami March.08.1949.
He was counted out resting on his knee in that one.

[Brutu]

Although apparently(from the US census) Elmer Ray's father's Potato and Cabbage farm may have actually been located in the border county of Putnam County Florida,the nearest town they lived near to was Hastings Florida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastings,_Florida


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatka,_Florida

[Brutu]

That March.28.1949 newspaper article gave a big clue,when it reported that Elmer Ray announced his retirement from the ring and was going back to Minneapolis and open a package shop.
I did a quick look again over http://www.ancestry.com.

The death notices there do list an Elmer Ray that died in 1963
in Hennepin County,Minnesota.
Hennepin County,MN is where the city of Minneapolis is located.
Elmer Ray would have been about 51 years old in 1963.
Someone here should join ancestry.com and get the full info regarding that particular death notice(the age,etc)


Have we finally solved the mystery of Whatever became of Elmer Ray?

[Brutu]

As far as further research into the life and career of Elmer Ray.
I just came across an on-line newspaper article,Tacoma(WA) News Tribune,
dated January.19.2010,
That the son of boxing manager Tommy O'Loughlin,
Bob O'Loughlin,is still around(now 78 years old).
He is still active and the scion of the Portland-Tacoma Washington trade shows,and for the Northwest(
He just did a boat show in January).

I dont know if Bob O'Loughlin was used as a source of information about the life of Charley Burley in Harry Ott's 2006 book ,
(due to the fact,a paperback copy of it sells for $220 dollars on Amazon.com!)

But Perhaps someone can contact Mr.O'Loughlin and see if he has any information,memorabilia passed down from his father, that would be helpful in reconstructing the life and career
of Elmer Ray?

[wouter]

The Elmer Ray from Putnam County was in fact THE Elmer Ray. I was the one who originally contacted the Federal Point website about further info on Ray. The names of his parents and brothers and sisters mentioned on that website are correct, so if someone can find the Minneapolis obituary and confirm the names of that Elmer Ray's family, the 'Elmer Ray case' can be closed. A nephew of his by the way is still living in Hastings, but I have not been able to contact him yet.

[Brutu]

were you able to at least confirm the age of the Elmer Ray that died in Hennepin Minnesota in 1963 at http://www.ancestry.com?
If it states 51 or 52 yrs in 1963,then mostly likely it is him.
I also noticed in the same search at http://www.ancestry.com,that a Robert Elmer Ray died in 1985 in Hennepin MN(his son?)
and another Robert Elmer Ray died in Hennepin in 1998(his grandson?).

[Brutu]

You should contact Bob O'Loughlin in Tacoma WA too.
and ask him about Elmer Ray.
If he is 78 years old now,he is old enough to have met many of the fighters his father managed in the 1940's,
including Charley Burley.
He would have been 16 y in 1948.

[Brutu]

Here is a link to a rare posed newspaper photo of Elmer Ray in 1947(scroll down beneath photo of Gus Lesnevich)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0c ... 6374077&dq

[bobmee]

I've been trying to find the death of Elmer Ray for a long time and am reluctant to draw any conclusions about Minnesota (as discussed earlier)... he was also said to have been living in Los Angeles at one point long after his career was over, probably in the late 50s.

Details I have:
His father was John A Ray, originally from Decatur, Georgia, his mother was named Lillie, born in Florida. They married in 1900 and lived out in the farmlands of Putnam County, Florida. According to the 1920 census for Federal Point, Putnam, Florida, they had a string of children including Elmer, listed as 8 years old, so born in 1911 or 1912. They also had William (1904) Robert (1907) Louisa (1909) Carrie (1915) and Julia Margaret (1919). In 1930, they were still there, with Elmer by then supposedly 17... I guess out there the years became a little hazy after a while. By 1935, Elmer was still there and described as 21. I tend to go with the earliest census returns as the most accurate because it's easier to count small numbers!

In 1938 Elmer married Marie Bass in Putnam, Florida, and in 1941 an Elmer Ray married Viola Florence Mills in Putnam. I haven't yet been able to find out whether or not Marie died, or if they divorced but it seems to be the same Elmer. no trace of another one in Putnam co.

Given the Los Angeles possibility, it was also interesting to find an Elmer Ray, supposedly aged 44, marrying a 54-year-old named Antionet Kniesche in Los Angeles in September 1962. No conclusions to be drawn from that, however. It could be another man, and the Los Angeles identification could be an entire case of mistaken identity.

Hope that helps. The quest goes on!

[Brutu]

Has anyone here joined http://www.ancestry.com to further look into this?(unfortunately I maxed out my cc months ago,so I am unable to join).
Anyway as far as a limited free search.
A great many Elmer Ray's are listed,but at least another 2 of them appear interesting to follow up on.

An Elmer Ray is listed as having died in Dade County,Florida in 1952.
also an Elmer J. Ray died in Wheeler Texas in 1995.
(R. is listed as Elmer Ray middle initital in the 1920 Putnam County FL. census.)

Hopefully someone here with some coin can join http://www.ancestry.com and follow up on that.
or at least eliminate those two as possibly being the ex-boxer.

[Brutu]

Not sure if this helps either,according to the newspaper heavyweight rankings in the mid-1930's.
Tampa Florida was listed as Elmer Ray's city of residence.
Perhaps he may have moved back there later in life?

[Brutu]

Has anyone here been able to find out whatever became of Elmer(Violent)Ray?

[Brutu]

Bump.
Anyone come across any leads yet as to whatever became of Elmer"Violent"Ray?

[Brutu]

Still another year and no one seems to know whatever became of Elmer Ray.

If he is still around he would be 99 years old.
But what are the chances of that since no one has heard from him
anywhere in the boxing world since 1951?

[Brutu]

Here is a link to a rare posed newspaper photo of Elmer Ray in 1947(scroll down beneath photo of Gus Lesnevich)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0c ... 6374077&dq

IMOP Elmer Ray look facially like a cross between Eddie Futch and Chuck Berry.

[wouter]

Elmer Ray appears to be listed in the California Death Index as Elmo John Ray, born 1911-3-3 in Florida, died 1987-5-20 in Inglewood, Los Angeles. His mother's maiden name is listed as Hawkins (Lilly Hawkins was Elmer Ray's mother).

[Chuck1052]

Wouter, Earlier this year, I also looked for Elmer "Violent" Ray in the California Death Records database and found one Elmo Ray, but I didn't know if his mother's maiden name was Hawkins. One could also send in for copies of his death certificate and Social Security application to get more information about him.

- Chuck Johnston

[Caractacus]

Here is a link to a rare posed newspaper photo of Elmer Ray in 1947(scroll down beneath photo of Gus Lesnevich)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0c ... 6374077&dq

IMOP Elmer Ray look facially like a cross between Eddie Futch and Chuck Berry.

tru dat ! LOL

[margaret thatcher]

great nickname, relevant and to the point

[pound per pound]

This is the best elmer ray article you will ever see written at eastside boxing by the fabulous poster marcianofrazier, one of the most knowledgable men on the era i have ever spoken too....thank him for this.



Part 1:


Elmer Ray is an intriguing fighter, and one on whom information is scarce. He had an outstanding record, but has received very little media coverage, and there is no surviving film of any of his fights. In addition, much of his career, particularly early on, is oddly mysterious and difficult to sort through. This has all made me exceedingly curious, and in recent months, I've spent a fair deal of time sifting for information on him, largely from old magazine and newspaper accounts. I wanted to share some of my more interesting findings here, and discuss the confusing points which still remain.

Here's some background on Ray:
In the years before he became a famous professional boxer, he rose to prominence in the southern battle royale circuit- battle royales being a fight game from that time period in which 10 competitors would be put into the ring with each other and have an "all-against-all" throw-down until only one was left. Ray won 61 battle royales and supposedly once knocked out nine opponents with one hand behind his back during a match in New Orleans, earning himself the title "King of the Battle Royale." According to the Traverse City Eagle, March 11, 1946,
"Ray had a system that let him win 61 of those free-for-alls. In these bouts, the usual order is for the little guys to gang up on the biggest man and down the batting order in that manner. Elmer simply dropped to the floor when the bell sounded, crawled to a corner, placed his back against the ropes and took the whole gang as it came at him."

He also had a reputation as an alligator wrestler. When he held camp near his home town in Florida, he would scare his manager to death by going out into the mud and wrestling 'gators, often to entertain tourists. In fact, he was so comfortable around them that he was known to casually play with them and let them eat out of his hand.

All-in-all, I think the nickname "Violent" fits him just fine. Interesting side note- after WWII, Ray's rather outspoken and creative manager, Tommy O'Loughlin, apparently tried to rechristen him "Elmer 'Atomic' Ray," but it didn't stick.

Now, on to the confusing parts:

First, His Age and Early Record

Ray is listed on boxrec as having been born in March 10th, 1910, but elsewhere on the internet is listed as having been born in October, and, in one newspaper account I've seen, is said to have been born in May. But even odder is the age discrepancy; some accounts have him born in 1910 and hence being in his late 30s at the time of all of his major fights, but others have him at seven years younger. Accounts of the Charles fights disagree on whether he was 31 or 38 at the time of the fights! I've seen one other article which clarifies that Ray himself was not sure how old he was, but even then, a seven year discrepancy in age is hard to account for.

Now, boxrec used to list Ray as having had a series of fights in the late '20s, before taking an inexplicable six-year layoff and then coming back in 1936. However, I have seen it said that the '20s fights were considered "suspect," and they have now been removed from his boxrec record. Still further, I've seen at least one article which specifically describes Ray as having taken up boxing in 1936. If the '20s fights did happen, then the age issue is more or less resolved, since he would've had to have been having professional heavyweight fights when he was 10 years old in order for the younger age to be true, but if they are spurious (which now seems likely), then the younger age actually fits much better with the timeline of his career in a lot of ways, since that would make Ray 19 when he turned pro in 1936 (a typical age for turning professional) and would have him peaking in his mid-late twenties (also typical) before starting to decline in his early thirties, instead of turning pro at 16, having a few fights and then being inactive for six years, coming back in his late twenties and then finally rising to the top of the division in his late thirties, which would be extremely unusual in that era, particularly for a swarming-style fighter like Ray. In addition, I've been able to find no evidence anywhere of Ray dying, and if he's lived to the present day, a younger birth date seems more likely.

The answer to this question could change the way one would look at Ray's record in the late '30s through early '40s. If he was a 19-to-20-year old who probably wasn't completely physically mature and had no prior one-on-one boxing experience, then his results in those years are cast in a considerably different light than if he was an older guy who had had some pro boxing matches a few years back and gone on a layoff.

------------------------------------------------------
The Allegations That He Was Avoided
This one is particularly interesting. Here are some quotes from contemporary newspaper accounts:


"Elmer (Violent) Ray has the extraordinary distinction of being the only man Joe Louis wouldn't even meet in an exhibition. Louis boxed Dan Merritt of Cleveland instead, and stood watching as Ray, a crowding weaver and bobber with the speed of a swift middleweight, ironed out Claudio Villar, a Spaniard, in 29 seconds flat.”
"Arturo Godoy and Tami Mauriello rejected guarantees to square off with Ray at Madison square Garden, Lee Oma the Violent One's share of the swag in addition to his own. Joe Baksi and Lou Nova refused. Melio Bettina will have nothing to do with the Hastings Hammerer. Jimmy Bivins turned down the chance to march front and center with him in Los Angeles, where the terror recorded 19 knockouts in a row. The current Joe Walcott will have no truck with him in Baltimore... Currently he is drawing and at Miami's Negro ball yard, Dorsey Park, while putting the slug on such as Dan Merritt and Al Patterson, the latter a slatty character out of Pittsburgh. "It's better than wrestlingalligators and fighting nine guys at once," beams Violent Ray."
-The Coshocton Tribune, March 8, 1946

"None of the near-name heavies wants any part of Ray, who in a New Orleans battle royal knocked out nine opponents with one hand tied behind his back."

"...in doing so he made of Elmer Ray a modern Sam Langford. You remember the Boston Tar Baby. He was a guy heavyweight champion Jack Johnson dodged and dodged during the six years he held the title some three decades ago. Langford tried desperately to get a bout with the champ, but Johnson never would have a part of him. Louis is that way with Ray. It’s silly to say that Louis, the man who has made so many valiant defenses of the crown, is afraid of Elmer. But it is a fact that he won’t fight the burley puncher from Hastings, Florida."
-Middlesboro Daily News, July 26, 1947

It seems that the white contenders ducked Ray like the plague; about the only one who got in with him was Savold, and he was knocked out cold as a doorknob in two rounds. Louis himself even refused to spar with Ray or fight him in an exhibition, claiming that Ray "didn't know how to fight an exhibition" and one of them was liable to get hurt, and in spite of Ray compiling a 50 fight winning streak that included a crushing blow-out over staple top 10 Savold and a decision over top-five Walcott that brought him to #1 contender, he never received a title shot. It is worth pointing out, though, that Ray was only #1 contender for about three months before he was knocked off his pedestal by Walcott, and then he was #2 again for about a year-and-a-half afterwards. Hence, I don't think comparing this with a Harry Wills or Sam Langford-type situation in terms of title chances is really merited.

That was a good post. I know this post old. Is author Marcano-Frazier still alive. There is much out there on Ray

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I've been trying to find the death of Elmer Ray for a long time and am reluctant to draw any conclusions about Minnesota (as discussed earlier)... he was also said to have been living in Los Angeles at one point long after his career was over, probably in the late 50s.

Details I have:
His father was John A Ray, originally from Decatur, Georgia, his mother was named Lillie, born in Florida. They married in 1900 and lived out in the farmlands of Putnam County, Florida. According to the 1920 census for Federal Point, Putnam, Florida, they had a string of children including Elmer, listed as 8 years old, so born in 1911 or 1912. They also had William (1904) Robert (1907) Louisa (1909) Carrie (1915) and Julia Margaret (1919). In 1930, they were still there, with Elmer by then supposedly 17... I guess out there the years became a little hazy after a while. By 1935, Elmer was still there and described as 21. I tend to go with the earliest census returns as the most accurate because it's easier to count small numbers!

In 1938 Elmer married Marie Bass in Putnam, Florida, and in 1941 an Elmer Ray married Viola Florence Mills in Putnam. I haven't yet been able to find out whether or not Marie died, or if they divorced but it seems to be the same Elmer. no trace of another one in Putnam co.

Given the Los Angeles possibility, it was also interesting to find an Elmer Ray, supposedly aged 44, marrying a 54-year-old named Antionet Kniesche in Los Angeles in September 1962. No conclusions to be drawn from that, however. It could be another man, and the Los Angeles identification could be an entire case of mistaken identity.

Hope that helps. The quest goes on!

- Miss me Bob Mee checking in now and again along with Graham Houston, John Scully, Chauncy Welliver, ect.

Mee with the best bareknucks history published if anyone is interested. Biblical violence and skulduggery

Anyway, Ray was in the mix, but couldn't hold it together in the narrow window when Joe mustered out and began his post WW2 career.

Boxrec may not be the end all, be all, but:

Elmer (Violent) Ray was the #1 ranked heavyweight contender in early 1947. He lost that ranking and a potential title fight with Joe Louis, when he was defeated by Jersey Joe Walcott on March 1, 1947. Ray would subsequently go on to defeat future champion Ezzard Charles on a split decision, before Charles knocked him out in the 9th round on May 7, 1948, ending his title hopes for good.

[Bob]

Below are the facts that I have on Elmer:

1920 US census - listed as 8 (in Florida)
1930 US census - listed as 17 (in Florida)
1935 Florida census - listed as 21
1938 - married Marie Bass on April 19th
1940 US census - listed as 24 (in Florida) and Marie listed as 25
1950 US census - listed as 38 (in California) still married to Marie (listed as 36) and living in Los Angeles
(his profession is listed as "Fighter")
California Death Index lists Elmo John Ray as being born on March 3, 1911 and dying on May 20, 1987 in Los Angeles

Note: the 1941 marriage to Viola Mills was for Elmer T. Ray of Detroit
Will try to find out what happened to his wife Marie

[Bob]

Also:

In the 1950 census, they are listed as living with Robert Mandy (head of household age 52) and his wife Maggie (age 38); Elmer and Marie are listed as brother-in-law and sister-in-law, so I assume that Maggie is Marie's sister (given the ages).
They are also living with their son Elmer Jr. (listed as 2).

Elmer Imanuel Ray was born November 14, 1947 in Hennepin, Minnesota to Elmer Allen (?) Ray and Marie Antonette Ray.