If Clay/Ali had never been born. What would have happened?

[keithmoonhangover]

Who would have taken the title from Liston?

Who would have lost to Frazier?

Who would have beat Foreman?

Who loses to Holmes?

I'm just going to throw this out there, but I think Joe Bugner would have outpointed Foreman.

[romerojesus_2010]

If clay/ Ali had never been born, then we'd simply have other names for boxing legends.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Who would have taken the title from Liston?

Who would have lost to Frazier?

Who would have beat Foreman?

Who loses to Holmes?

I'm just going to throw this out there, but I think Joe Bugner would have outpointed Foreman.

When you, "throw it out there," make sure it hits its mark --- the trash can.

Frazier takes the title from an ageing Liston, circa-1968 --- if a Machen or a Folley didn't get him first.

Not sure what you mean by questions two & four. Everybody was losing to Frazier & Holmes. Maybe Young beats the prime Foreman --- possible --- but I honestly think he'd have reigned, barring upsets, until he either lost to Holmes, or beat Holmes & lost shortly thereafter, sometime around 1980. If you subtract Ali from Foreman's title reign, the 70's talent pool gets progressively shallower from around the time Foreman lost to Ali, with only Holmes being a true stand-out between 75-85.

[raylawpc]

Who would have taken the title from Liston?

Who would have lost to Frazier?

Who would have beat Foreman?

Who loses to Holmes?

Who cares?

[Ambling Alp]

Hard to say with Liston. He would have been the champ for 3-5 years. Gradually the title defenses would have tougher and tougher as he aged. I think Ernie Terrell may have been the guy to get him. Jimmy Ellis would have been another likley fighter.

Frazier still would have lost the title to Foreman in 1973.
Foreman probably would have been the champion for atleast three more years. Foreman-Frazier II would have happened in 1975. If Frazier could fight as well as he did in the 3rd Ali fight he could make it interesting against Foreman.

Norton would have got another shot but Foreman would have beat him again. Shavers would have had a serious chance as well. Hard to say about Bugner. When he had it together he was a tough guy to blow out.
The late 1970s would have interesting. My guess is that Young still would have beaten him. If not, Foreman-Holmes in 1978 would have been very interesting.

[yancey]

Bugner beating Foreman?

Uh, no.

[keithmoonhangover]

Bugner beating Foreman?

Uh, no.

Bugner took some stopping and had a fantastic chin. Imagine it was Bugner and not Ali in Zaire. I think Bugner wins the last half of the fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Bugner doesn't see the second half of that fight.

Seriously, I mean WTF!? Bugner?

[keithmoonhangover]

Bugner doesn't see the second half of that fight.

Seriously, I mean WTF!? Bugner?

Bugner had a granite chin, canny movement, a good jab and superb stamina.

Styles make fights. Bugner would never go down in history as a better boxer. But his style was perfect for Foreman.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Nonsense. He has nothing with which to discourage Foreman's onslaught. A solitary Frazier left hook had him on his knees. He would never survive Foreman's onslaught.

Which fights proved Bugner could take what Foreman could dish out? Bugner wouldn't even press Foreman --- it would not be a difficult night for the champ.

[zojo]

If Ali was never born, Joe Martin would have been let go from the vice-and-bicycle-theft office within the Louisville police department. After all, who would Joe have helped if not a young Ali didn't have his bike stolen?

[yancey]

Bugner doesn't see the second half of that fight.

Seriously, I mean WTF!? Bugner?

Bugner had a granite chin, canny movement, a good jab and superb stamina.

Styles make fights. Bugner would never go down in history as a better boxer. But his style was perfect for Foreman.

Are you confusing "canny movement" with twitching on the canvas?

[keithmoonhangover]

Nonsense. He has nothing with which to discourage Foreman's onslaught. A solitary Frazier left hook had him on his knees. He would never survive Foreman's onslaught.

Which fights proved Bugner could take what Foreman could dish out? Bugner wouldn't even press Foreman --- it would not be a difficult night for the champ.

He went the distance with Frazier and Ali - twice. Foreman was slow, methodical, but predicatable.

Bugner was a superb defensive fighter. Styles make fights. He had the right style.

Let me ask you this. What did Jimmy Young do that would have made you think he would beat Foreman? He was 20-5-2 going into the Foreman fight - with only 5 KO's.

Please explain.

[raylawpc]

I think this topic is inane, but I agree with Keith that Bugner would have been a bad fight for Foreman, especially post 1974.

[yancey]

I think this topic is inane, but I agree with Keith that Bugner would have been a bad fight for Foreman, especially post 1974.

I'm talking 1973-74 and in those years Foreman beats up any version of Joe Bugner something awful.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think this topic is inane, but I agree with Keith that Bugner would have been a bad fight for Foreman, especially post 1974.

I'm talking 1973-74 and in those years Foreman beats up any version of Joe Bugner something awful.

Exactly --- this isn't the Foreman Young outpointed (by a surprisingly narrow margin, actually). This is the destroyer, the wrecking ball, who cut a swathe through the division en route to arguably the greatest title-winning effort in division history --- certainly, one of the most shocking & dramatic. Keith says Bugner went the distance with Ali, & that is allegedly some insight he would hang with Foreman. Even Yancey, who enjoys putting the boot into Foreman where possible, won't entertain a crazy idea like Bugner being favourite to beat someone of Foreman's calibre.

Foreman & Ali have skin colour in common --- that's about it. How in the world Bugner's fights with Ali are relevant when arguing he's tough enough to endure Foreman's assault in beyond me. For the sake of the Young issue, he was a better boxer than Bugner was --- quicker, better-defensively, & his record against world-class opposition reflects his superiority to Bugner. He scraped by Foreman (our own DempseyFire had it even going into the last round), & a lot of people forget it was quite close. Young didn't win with room to spare --- & he wouldn't have won, period, against the pre-Zaire Foreman.

Bugner has nothing to seriously discourage Foreman's assault, offensively. He is not as elusive as Young, or as durable & intelligent as Ali. He was a good fighter --- you need to be a hell of a lot more than that to beat a prime George Foreman. At the end of the day, Foreman beat plenty of men on or near Bugner's level, & several above it. Bugner beat no one on Foreman's level, & the few rivals he faced in & around that plateau of greatness were convincing winners against him. When the gulf in class is this enormous, styles are no longer a determinant --- they are, rather, a nuisance.

[keithmoonhangover]

goodnight, irene. Let me ask you one question. Going into the Tyson fight, did you think Douglas was going to stop Tyson in the later rounds??????

[Crease]

If Muhammad Ali never joined boxing, I thought there would be a prominent change in how we rank certain Heavyweight Champions.

1. Joe Louis becomes greater.
Louis would become widely recognised as the standout Number One Heavyweight of all time.
(Seeing as there's no Ali to compete with him for that accolade)

2. Joe Frazier goes down.
It was the fights against Ali which showed Frazier's courage and tenacity.
Without them, he would be remembered for his fights against Foreman, in which he was destroyed.

3. George Foreman goes up.
Without Ali, Foreman would not have been stopped in his prime... He holds the Titles from 1973 through to 1978. Then he fights Larry Holmes, which I think he would have won.
Mike Tyson would have been the man to stop him.

[Ambling Alp]

I agree with all of those statements. I do think that if a Foreman-Frazier rematch would have happened sooner, probably in 1974. This would have been a differnet fight than the rematch they had in 1976. Frazier would not have had the 3rd Ali fight and would have had a lot more left in the tank. The big thing would be that he could not make his customary slow start again. Against Foreman, that is deadly.
Foreman would probably still win though.

It's doubtful that Tyson-foreman would have happned. Foreman would have been in his late 30s and probably would have been retired. Even if it happened it would have no historicial significance because Foreman would have been way past it.

[Ambling Alp]

I think this topic is inane, but I agree with Keith that Bugner would have been a bad fight for Foreman, especially post 1974.

I'm talking 1973-74 and in those years Foreman beats up any version of Joe Bugner something awful.

Exactly --- this isn't the Foreman Young outpointed (by a surprisingly narrow margin, actually). This is the destroyer, the wrecking ball, who cut a swathe through the division en route to arguably the greatest title-winning effort in division history --- certainly, one of the most shocking & dramatic. Keith says Bugner went the distance with Ali, & that is allegedly some insight he would hang with Foreman. Even Yancey, who enjoys putting the boot into Foreman where possible, won't entertain a crazy idea like Bugner being favourite to beat someone of Foreman's calibre.

Foreman & Ali have skin colour in common --- that's about it. How in the world Bugner's fights with Ali are relevant when arguing he's tough enough to endure Foreman's assault in beyond me. For the sake of the Young issue, he was a better boxer than Bugner was --- quicker, better-defensively, & his record against world-class opposition reflects his superiority to Bugner. He scraped by Foreman (our own DempseyFire had it even going into the last round), & a lot of people forget it was quite close. Young didn't win with room to spare --- & he wouldn't have won, period, against the pre-Zaire Foreman.

Bugner has nothing to seriously discourage Foreman's assault, offensively. He is not as elusive as Young, or as durable & intelligent as Ali. He was a good fighter --- you need to be a hell of a lot more than that to beat a prime George Foreman. At the end of the day, Foreman beat plenty of men on or near Bugner's level, & several above it. Bugner beat no one on Foreman's level, & the few rivals he faced in & around that plateau of greatness were convincing winners against him. When the gulf in class is this enormous, styles are no longer a determinant --- they are, rather, a nuisance.

First, I want to say I would still pick Foreman. And I also believe that ability is more important than style. However, it would not be an easy fight. It's true that Bugner never beat anyone near the level of Foreman. However, he always gave people tough fights. He barely lost to Lyle. He gave Frazier a lot of trouble.

Noo bugner was not as slick as Young. (Btw, disagree that the Young was close. I thought Young won fairly easily. I believe most people did not think it was that close.)
However, Bugner was not easy to hit, and had a good chin when he did get hit. As mentioned he went the distance with Frazier and Lyle. He never got stopped during his prime. Would it have stood up to the Foreman assault? That is the big question and we really don't know.

[Goodnight, Irene]

goodnight, irene. Let me ask you one question. Going into the Tyson fight, did you think Douglas was going to stop Tyson in the later rounds??????

I was six when that happened --- I had no interest, & no take.

The point you're making, though, is precisely...?

[Goodnight, Irene]

If Muhammad Ali never joined boxing, I thought there would be a prominent change in how we rank certain Heavyweight Champions.

1. Joe Louis becomes greater.
Louis would become widely recognised as the standout Number One Heavyweight of all time.
(Seeing as there's no Ali to compete with him for that accolade)

2. Joe Frazier goes down.
It was the fights against Ali which showed Frazier's courage and tenacity.
Without them, he would be remembered for his fights against Foreman, in which he was destroyed.

3. George Foreman goes up.
Without Ali, Foreman would not have been stopped in his prime... He holds the Titles from 1973 through to 1978. Then he fights Larry Holmes, which I think he would have won.
Mike Tyson would have been the man to stop him.

There's some confusion here. You're saying Foreman holds the title until 1978, but beats Holmes, & Foreman's reign isn't ended until Tyson?

I confused

[keithmoonhangover]

goodnight, irene. Let me ask you one question. Going into the Tyson fight, did you think Douglas was going to stop Tyson in the later rounds??????

I was six when that happened --- I had no interest, & no take.

The point you're making, though, is precisely...?

If you were six, I feel old!!!! lol Thanks "Mate"

I just saying that not all fights go with the form. Some fighters just have a style that would enable them to beat someone that they have no business beating.

Foreman - Young

Hearns - Barkley

Chavez - Randall

Are three quick examples.

Back in his first career, Foreman admits himself that he wasn't relaxed in the ring and if he couldn't knock his man out he would be frustrated.

Frazier and Norton weren't that difficult to hit. Therefore Foreman walked though them.

Tactically Bugner was a very good defensive fighter. As I said before, he would have won the last half of the fight.

I'm not saying Bugner is some kind of legend. Just that his style would be right for the Foreman fight.

[BoxBuzz]

Foreman himself has said that Quarry's was a style he was happy to avoid. I think Bugner though different from Quarry would also be challenging.

[yancey]

If we are talking prime Foreman against Bugner, imo there is just too great of a chance Foreman lands a big shot within the first two or three rounds, buckles Bugner's knees like he did Chuvalo, gets him (Bugner) into a corner, lands some more big shots and ends it fairly quickly.

I just doubt that Bugner (despite the "canny movement" ) could avoid being badly roughed up by Big George fairly early. And if Big George roughed you up back then, he would do practically anything to get you out. (including hitting the opponent when down) Imagine what Foreman would have done to Bugner if Joe was out on his feet momentarily like he was from that Frazier hook. Frazier backed away, but Foreman would have gone nuts and clubbed Bugner senseless.

If Bugner survives the first three or four rounds in decent shape, then it might indeed turn out to be a struggle.