If Clay/Ali had never been born. What would have happened?

[BoxBuzz]

IMHO Young was better than Bugner, and he barely pulled it off. And George's state of mind was part of Young's success. So I'm inclined to agree that though Bugner COULD be a challenge, he'd probably fall apart.

By the way could someone apprise me....just what years did Joe work in the cannery again? And what moves did he learn there? Perhaps the 45 degree uppercut?.....On second thought that move was probably not learned there by Joe......if that were the case certainly Ali and Joe would have been victimized.

[yancey]

Foreman himself has said that Quarry's was a style he was happy to avoid. I think Bugner though different from Quarry would also be challenging.

A theoretically effective opposing style all too often gets thrown out the window when one is being manhandled or gets clubbed upside the head.



p.s. But man would I have LOVED to have seen Quarry go up against Foreman. I'm just afraid Quarry would have gotten brutalized, but I could certainly be wrong.

[yancey]

I was watching Foreman the other day against Chuvalo and was once again struck by that curious, awkward movement of his in stretching his hands out towards the opponent. He wasn't punching, just kind of reaching out, touching and positioning. Almost as if he was testing the strength of his prey before moving in for the kill. He did the same sort of reaching out towards Norton, if I recall correctly.

[BoxBuzz]

Yep that's a noticeable "Foremanism". lol Peralta would not allow it, and managed to go the distance, and show how you at least could "buy time" with George.

[Diamond WEAPON]

If Muhammad Ali never joined boxing, I thought there would be a prominent change in how we rank certain Heavyweight Champions.

1. Joe Louis becomes greater.
Louis would become widely recognised as the standout Number One Heavyweight of all time.
(Seeing as there's no Ali to compete with him for that accolade)

2. Joe Frazier goes down.
It was the fights against Ali which showed Frazier's courage and tenacity.
Without them, he would be remembered for his fights against Foreman, in which he was destroyed.

3. George Foreman goes up.
Without Ali, Foreman would not have been stopped in his prime... He holds the Titles from 1973 through to 1978. Then he fights Larry Holmes, which I think he would have won.
Mike Tyson would have been the man to stop him.

I wonder if and where Foreman's religious transformation would come about then if he had managed to reign all the way until Tyson. Considering his mental demons, I still think he would've retired in the late 80's after losing to somebody that he'd have been favored to beat.

I think Liston would go up in the rankings as well, as he'd no longer be known for "quitting" and cheating against Ali in their fights and likely would've reigned as champ for a few more years until a young Joe Frazier stepped up to take the title from an aged version of him in what would've likely been an exciting war. In that sense, Frazier's career may have been helped by his beating Liston rather than a laid-off Ali after winning a "paper" title.

Howard Cosell's role in Boxing history would be marginalized, which would be a good thing because Cosell is a fuckin idiot.

Sugar Ray Leonard would be a much bigger star due to his persona being more unique without having to follow Ali's gitzy celebrated legacy as a pop culture icon, although Ali certainly had a fair degree of inspiration for Leonard.

Mike Tyson would get the same treatment as Leonard as well since we wouldn't have Ali to compare him to in terms of persona. He'd likely be looked at more closely to Frazier and Foreman, who were darker more brutal types like Tyson.

[keithmoonhangover]

(despite the "canny movement" ) .

I'm starting to think that 'canny' has a different meaning in places other than the North East of England. Is it true?

[keithmoonhangover]

If Muhammad Ali never joined boxing, I thought there would be a prominent change in how we rank certain Heavyweight Champions.

1. Joe Louis becomes greater.
Louis would become widely recognised as the standout Number One Heavyweight of all time.
(Seeing as there's no Ali to compete with him for that accolade)

2. Joe Frazier goes down.
It was the fights against Ali which showed Frazier's courage and tenacity.
Without them, he would be remembered for his fights against Foreman, in which he was destroyed.

3. George Foreman goes up.
Without Ali, Foreman would not have been stopped in his prime... He holds the Titles from 1973 through to 1978. Then he fights Larry Holmes, which I think he would have won.
Mike Tyson would have been the man to stop him.

I wonder if and where Foreman's religious transformation would come about then if he had managed to reign all the way until Tyson. Considering his mental demons, I still think he would've retired in the late 80's after losing to somebody that he'd have been favored to beat.

I think Liston would go up in the rankings as well, as he'd no longer be known for "quitting" and cheating against Ali in their fights and likely would've reigned as champ for a few more years until a young Joe Frazier stepped up to take the title from an aged version of him in what would've likely been an exciting war. In that sense, Frazier's career may have been helped by his beating Liston rather than a laid-off Ali after winning a "paper" title.

Howard Cosell's role in Boxing history would be marginalized, which would be a good thing because Cosell is a fuckin idiot.

Sugar Ray Leonard would be a much bigger star due to his persona being more unique without having to follow Ali's gitzy celebrated legacy as a pop culture icon, although Ali certainly had a fair degree of inspiration for Leonard.

Mike Tyson would get the same treatment as Leonard as well since we wouldn't have Ali to compare him to in terms of persona. He'd likely be looked at more closely to Frazier and Foreman, who were darker more brutal types like Tyson.

I think it goes.... Liston - Folley - Ellis - Frazier - Foreman - Bugner - Frazier - Norton - Holmes

[yancey]

If Muhammad Ali never joined boxing, I thought there would be a prominent change in how we rank certain Heavyweight Champions.

1. Joe Louis becomes greater.
Louis would become widely recognised as the standout Number One Heavyweight of all time.
(Seeing as there's no Ali to compete with him for that accolade)

2. Joe Frazier goes down.
It was the fights against Ali which showed Frazier's courage and tenacity.
Without them, he would be remembered for his fights against Foreman, in which he was destroyed.

3. George Foreman goes up.
Without Ali, Foreman would not have been stopped in his prime... He holds the Titles from 1973 through to 1978. Then he fights Larry Holmes, which I think he would have won.
Mike Tyson would have been the man to stop him.

I wonder if and where Foreman's religious transformation would come about then if he had managed to reign all the way until Tyson. Considering his mental demons, I still think he would've retired in the late 80's after losing to somebody that he'd have been favored to beat.

I think Liston would go up in the rankings as well, as he'd no longer be known for "quitting" and cheating against Ali in their fights and likely would've reigned as champ for a few more years until a young Joe Frazier stepped up to take the title from an aged version of him in what would've likely been an exciting war. In that sense, Frazier's career may have been helped by his beating Liston rather than a laid-off Ali after winning a "paper" title.

Howard Cosell's role in Boxing history would be marginalized, which would be a good thing because Cosell is a fuckin idiot.

Sugar Ray Leonard would be a much bigger star due to his persona being more unique without having to follow Ali's gitzy celebrated legacy as a pop culture icon, although Ali certainly had a fair degree of inspiration for Leonard.

Mike Tyson would get the same treatment as Leonard as well since we wouldn't have Ali to compare him to in terms of persona. He'd likely be looked at more closely to Frazier and Foreman, who were darker more brutal types like Tyson.

I think it goes.... Liston - Folley - Ellis - Frazier - Foreman - Bugner - Frazier - Norton - Holmes

Liston - Frazier - Foreman - Holmes is more like it.

Folley was unlikely to beat Liston circa '64-'66. Not enough movement, imo. Too plodding. Folley was well past it in '67, when Ali gave him a payday. Folley was a fine fighter and nice gentleman who should have got a shot at the title a number of years earlier.

Ellis might have snuck in somehow, but I really doubt it.

Bugner? I don't mean to be rude, Keith, but I really think you have Bugner overrated. Sure, he put up a good fight against a past it Frazier, but Bugner was never viewed as top rung. Bugner would not have gone the distance with prime Frazier.

As far as the "canny" business goes, no, I don't think the word has a different connotation in the States.

"Canny", at least to my way of thinking, implies cleverness, slickness, artfulness, etc. I'm sure Bugner probably looked good and pulled some nice looking moves against some lesser fighters in that era, but it is a stretch to call him "canny", imo. Sorry if you felt I was poking fun at you.

Cheers.

[BoxBuzz]

so if his moves were "uncanny".....what then?

[yancey]

so if his moves were "uncanny".....what then?

"Uncanny"----peculiarly unsettling, as if supernatural origin or nature; eerie. (per freedictionary.com)

Nope, that is not our boy, either.

[yancey]

The more I think about it, the canny Jimmy Young might have surprised and got the title for a brief period in that time frame between Foreman I and Holmes.

[keithmoonhangover]

Where I live, "canny" here means somewhere inbetween OK and Good.

You could say..... Samuel Peter is a canny heavywieght.

I guess your version is more like savvy?

[yancey]

Where I live, "canny" here means somewhere inbetween OK and Good.

You could say..... Samuel Peter is a canny heavywieght.

I guess your version is more like savvy?

Yes, a savvy fighter could also be considered a canny fighter, at least to the way I think.

[Crease]

I think Liston would go up in the rankings as well, as he'd no longer be known for "quitting" and cheating against Ali in their fights and likely would've reigned as champ for a few more years

Actually I didn not consider the Sonny Liston angle... Yeah Sonny goes up until he loses to Frazier.

And I think Foreman would have held the title until Tyson.
With an impresive victory in 1978 over Holmes.