Roberto Duran (1983) vs. Felix Trinidad (2001) At 154...

[Goodnight, Irene]

Duran's extra weight, or Trinidad's vastly inferior abilities...which decides the outcome?

Let's say both men are at the top of their Jr. Middleweight prowess for the fight.

[Idisagree]

I'll take Trinidad's power over Duran extra weight at 154. Remember Duran was never any good at 154 according to his fans
Trinidad was not as good as Hearns, but was not too far behind in punching power. Duran start by dominating the fight but eventually Trinidad's power get to him. Love to hear what Elmer has to say about this fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'll take Trinidad's power over Duran extra weight at 154. Remember Duran was never any good at 154 according to his fans
Trinidad was not as good as Hearns, but was not too far behind in punching power. Duran start by dominating the fight but eventually Trinidad's power get to him. Love to hear what Elmer has to say about this fight.

Disagree that Trinidad wasn't far behind Hearns in power. I think of those two as like comparing the power of Joe Frazier to George Foreman. Both can certainly crack above the average, but only one has ungodly power.

[Idisagree]

I'll take Trinidad's power over Duran extra weight at 154. Remember Duran was never any good at 154 according to his fans
Trinidad was not as good as Hearns, but was not too far behind in punching power. Duran start by dominating the fight but eventually Trinidad's power get to him. Love to hear what Elmer has to say about this fight.

Disagree that Trinidad wasn't far behind Hearns in power. I think of those two as like comparing the power of Joe Frazier to George Foreman. Both can certainly crack above the average, but only one has ungodly power.

I do agree that only one of them has ungodly power. However, the only reason why Trinidad had any career at all was because of his power. So I wouldn't take Trinidad's power lightly. I give Hearns in a scale of 1 to 10 a full 10 in terms of power and I give Trinidad at least a solid 8. But of course, that is just my opinion.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Saying Hearns' punch is on another level is taking Trinidad's power lightly? There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere there, right?

Of course, no power = no Trinidad (as much as I hate the guy, & as limited in several areas as he was, he was exceptional in more than just the power department), but I do feel his punch, though formidable (& aided by dodgy wraps...yeah, I said it, Titosites ), was maybe a 7-8 on a scale of 10 (if 4 or 5 is considered average). It's just that 9 & 10 should be considered a good deal stronger than 8 or below, in my book.

Kind of like this, if I had to make a half-hearted approach at quantifying it...

1-2 = Meek, & feather-fisted
3 = A light hitter, no knockout punch
4-5 = An average, run-of-the-mill hitter
6 = Somewhat above-average, can score the odd rapid KO
7-8 = Exceptional puncher, very good power, but no one-punch KO's against elite rivals
9-10 = Above the exceptional --- all-time, one-punch KO material

Trinidad would definitely be no higher than an eight on this scale. Hearns would be a definitive ten --- even nine ain't enough.

[Diamond WEAPON]

I think Tito takes out Duran late in a fight he's winning based on cumulative damage culminating in a set of staggering clean combos that land on a tiring Duran forcing him to the canvas one-too many times for the ref's liking.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Duran would use angles to bust Trinidad up. It would feature some tremendous exchanges but I don't see Trinidad being able to stop Duran. He doesn't have Hearns jab or speed either. They were as big a factor as his power. I'm still waiting for a face first, one dimensional slugger to handle Duran. Call it overrating if you like, he whips Trinidad's ass. 9-3ish, I think Tito lasts the distance but it would get ugly late. Roberto's right hand couldn't miss Trinidad's face if he turned his back to him.

[elmersalsa]

I'll take Trinidad's power over Duran extra weight at 154. Remember Duran was never any good at 154 according to his fans
Trinidad was not as good as Hearns, but was not too far behind in punching power. Duran start by dominating the fight but eventually Trinidad's power get to him. Love to hear what Elmer has to say about this fight.

Disagree that Trinidad wasn't far behind Hearns in power. I think of those two as like comparing the power of Joe Frazier to George Foreman. Both can certainly crack above the average, but only one has ungodly power.

I don't think that a fighter of Tito's magnitude, especially if he comes straight up with no angles would beat the great Roberto Duran. No slugger in no weight class has done it, and here is not different. Why? For starters, Tito is not the great Thomas Hearns nor the great Wilfred Benitez, extraordinary fighters that have lots of resources to win a fight. Tito only has one source: Going forward. That would be SUICIDAL against one of boxing's all-time greatest counter punchers in the inside. Duran at his very best could bob and weave beautifully, and give you angles, even though at this weight, would have been much more difficult to manuever his abilities.
Second, look what happened to Davey Moore and Pipino Cuevas? Duran demolished them. They were I think in the same class of Trinidad. And this is Tito's best weight to beat Duran. Because at 154lbs, Duran was much slower here than in welterweight or lightweight. But Duran resources would be the key, even though Duran was not as fast at this weight class.

Even though that Duran was SLOW at this weight, I cannot see Trinidad beating him.

It takes a fighter of great abilities, ring generalship and savvy to beat the great Roberto Duran at any weight. All Tito has is power and stamina, and still, IS NOT ENOUGH.

[Diamond WEAPON]

I'll take Trinidad's power over Duran extra weight at 154. Remember Duran was never any good at 154 according to his fans
Trinidad was not as good as Hearns, but was not too far behind in punching power. Duran start by dominating the fight but eventually Trinidad's power get to him. Love to hear what Elmer has to say about this fight.

Disagree that Trinidad wasn't far behind Hearns in power. I think of those two as like comparing the power of Joe Frazier to George Foreman. Both can certainly crack above the average, but only one has ungodly power.

I don't think that a fighter of Tito's magnitude, especially if he comes straight up with no angles would beat the great Roberto Duran. No slugger in no weight class has done it, and here is not different. Why? For starters, Tito is not the great Thomas Hearns nor the great Wilfred Benitez, extraordinary fighters that have lots of resources to win a fight. Tito only has one source: Going forward. That would be SUICIDAL against one of boxing's all-time greatest counter punchers in the inside. Duran at his very best could bob and weave beautifully, and give you angles, even though at this weight, would have been much more difficult to manuever his abilities.
Second, look what happened to Davey Moore and Pipino Cuevas? Duran demolished them. They were I think in the same class of Trinidad. And this is Tito's best weight to beat Duran. Because at 154lbs, Duran was much slower here than in welterweight or lightweight. But Duran resources would be the key, even though Duran was not as fast at this weight class.

Even though that Duran was SLOW at this weight, I cannot see Trinidad beating him.

It takes a fighter of great abilities, ring generalship and savvy to beat the great Roberto Duran at any weight. All Tito has is power and stamina, and still, IS NOT ENOUGH.

Not necessarily, at some point Duran would wind up overwhelmed. It may not have been Tito to do it, but Duran was too open, especially in his more lead-footed heavier days, to simply stand in against the assaults of some of the bigger bangers at 154+.

That said, I have been going back-and-forth on this one since I mad my initial post even when I've been away from the computer, that's how much this matchup, and others for Duran has captured my imagination. Duran was a very multi-faceted boxer, and just as DLH flummoxed Tito with his boxing, I could see the chubbier Duran doing it as well. Duran at 147+ wasn't as deadly as his younger, lighter days against smaller opponents but he did have a set of abilities that would carry him through against guys with physical advantages but technical deficiencies that he could take advantage of even if he wound up hurt and in trouble. Hagler is a good example of that.

[BoxBuzz]

If Vargas could make Tito uncomfortable, Duran would likely end up with a UD. And let's not forget that DLH honestly beat Tito. Even if the record books say different.

I'd bet on Duran.

[Idisagree]

I'll take Trinidad's power over Duran extra weight at 154. Remember Duran was never any good at 154 according to his fans
Trinidad was not as good as Hearns, but was not too far behind in punching power. Duran start by dominating the fight but eventually Trinidad's power get to him. Love to hear what Elmer has to say about this fight.

Disagree that Trinidad wasn't far behind Hearns in power. I think of those two as like comparing the power of Joe Frazier to George Foreman. Both can certainly crack above the average, but only one has ungodly power.

I don't think that a fighter of Tito's magnitude, especially if he comes straight up with no angles would beat the great Roberto Duran. No slugger in no weight class has done it, and here is not different. Why? For starters, Tito is not the great Thomas Hearns nor the great Wilfred Benitez, extraordinary fighters that have lots of resources to win a fight. Tito only has one source: Going forward. That would be SUICIDAL against one of boxing's all-time greatest counter punchers in the inside. Duran at his very best could bob and weave beautifully, and give you angles, even though at this weight, would have been much more difficult to manuever his abilities.
Second, look what happened to Davey Moore and Pipino Cuevas? Duran demolished them. They were I think in the same class of Trinidad. And this is Tito's best weight to beat Duran. Because at 154lbs, Duran was much slower here than in welterweight or lightweight. But Duran resources would be the key, even though Duran was not as fast at this weight class.

Even though that Duran was SLOW at this weight, I cannot see Trinidad beating him.

It takes a fighter of great abilities, ring generalship and savvy to beat the great Roberto Duran at any weight. All Tito has is power and stamina, and still, IS NOT ENOUGH.

There is your double standard. According to you Duran at 154 was "Horrible", "fat", "slow", "past his prime", and on and on..... But yet now he would have been prime and would have dominated Trinidad? Your own words comeback to hunt you.

You can't have it both ways. Which one is it? The Duran that you always portrait at 154 would have been killed by Trinidad, one dimensional or not. Of course, vs Benitez he was, well go back and check your post with all the excuses. But against Trinidad he would have been at his very best

I'm sure after Trinidad KTFO Duran you would've come in here and make a million excuses.

[Goodnight, Irene]

IDisagree,

I was going to make that exact point. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

[Darling]

I can't understand Elmo's "logic".

[Expug]

I dont remember Duran bobbing and weaving.
Lots of head movement and rolling with the shots coming his way. Bobbing and weaving I dont recall.
I dont picture Duran and Joe Frazier bringing the same arsenal.

[Ezzard]

Duran would use angles to bust Trinidad up. It would feature some tremendous exchanges but I don't see Trinidad being able to stop Duran. He doesn't have Hearns jab or speed either. They were as big a factor as his power. I'm still waiting for a face first, one dimensional slugger to handle Duran. Call it overrating if you like, he whips Trinidad's ass. 9-3ish, I think Tito lasts the distance but it would get ugly late. Roberto's right hand couldn't miss Trinidad's face if he turned his back to him.

I agree with this, he might even stop Trinidad.

[keithmoonhangover]

Duran would use angles to bust Trinidad up. It would feature some tremendous exchanges but I don't see Trinidad being able to stop Duran. He doesn't have Hearns jab or speed either. They were as big a factor as his power. I'm still waiting for a face first, one dimensional slugger to handle Duran. Call it overrating if you like, he whips Trinidad's ass. 9-3ish, I think Tito lasts the distance but it would get ugly late. Roberto's right hand couldn't miss Trinidad's face if he turned his back to him.

I agree with this, he might even stop Trinidad.

x2

[Bricks]

Duran's extra weight, or Trinidad's vastly inferior abilities...which decides the outcome?

Let's say both men are at the top of their Jr. Middleweight prowess for the fight.

Great matchup.

Trinidad was at his best imo in his short initial stay at 154. Whip like power and speed on his left hook the Vargas demolition is how i remember him. But he didnt quite have Hearns power and he didnt have Hearns speed or diverse boxing ability either.

And although a big man he wasnt as imposing as the 6ft 2 lighting fast Hearns.

Therefore this Duran, the one who beat Cuevas and Moore at 154 will not be up against it as much as the Hearns some people keep comparing Tito to, and duran will make it a all time great 15 round masterclass......winning on points and both boxing ala the Hagler fight and also brawling..on his way to a points win. Duran when he boxed at this weight had too many slick moves, nous, gamesmanship and Trinidad would not intimidate him in the slightest.

[elmersalsa]

Disagree that Trinidad wasn't far behind Hearns in power. I think of those two as like comparing the power of Joe Frazier to George Foreman. Both can certainly crack above the average, but only one has ungodly power.

I don't think that a fighter of Tito's magnitude, especially if he comes straight up with no angles would beat the great Roberto Duran. No slugger in no weight class has done it, and here is not different. Why? For starters, Tito is not the great Thomas Hearns nor the great Wilfred Benitez, extraordinary fighters that have lots of resources to win a fight. Tito only has one source: Going forward. That would be SUICIDAL against one of boxing's all-time greatest counter punchers in the inside. Duran at his very best could bob and weave beautifully, and give you angles, even though at this weight, would have been much more difficult to manuever his abilities.
Second, look what happened to Davey Moore and Pipino Cuevas? Duran demolished them. They were I think in the same class of Trinidad. And this is Tito's best weight to beat Duran. Because at 154lbs, Duran was much slower here than in welterweight or lightweight. But Duran resources would be the key, even though Duran was not as fast at this weight class.

Even though that Duran was SLOW at this weight, I cannot see Trinidad beating him.

It takes a fighter of great abilities, ring generalship and savvy to beat the great Roberto Duran at any weight. All Tito has is power and stamina, and still, IS NOT ENOUGH.

There is your double standard. According to you Duran at 154 was "Horrible", "fat", "slow", "past his prime", and on and on..... But yet now he would have been prime and would have dominated Trinidad? Your own words comeback to hunt you.

You can't have it both ways. Which one is it? The Duran that you always portrait at 154 would have been killed by Trinidad, one dimensional or not. Of course, vs Benitez he was, well go back and check your post with all the excuses. But against Trinidad he would have been at his very best

I'm sure after Trinidad KTFO Duran you would've come in here and make a million excuses.

Is not that I am making excuses for Duran. I just said that a guy like Trinidad, who is a straight up slugger and banger, cannot beat a guy like Duran at his very best. Duran at his very best at 154lbs WAS NOT THE SAME as when he was at lightweight or welterweight. He was slower, not in his prime, and 30+ years. As soon you hit 30 years old, you are not the same boxer. You lose the first thing: Speed. And Duran's speed was very underrated. Just look at him at lightweight and welterweight. But as soon he hit 154lbs, he looked terrible. Even at his very best at 154lbs, he could not beat a guy like the greats Thomas Hearns, Wilfred Benitez nor Sugar Ray Leonard. That is not his weight range. But the DIFFERENCE between Tito and those guys is that Tito does not have other resources to win a fight. Leonard, Benitez and Hearns have them. They were very extraordinary and exceptional. But at welterweight on down? I bet on Duran against any other fighter in history, especially if he is at his very best. And like I said, at middleweight, it was MUCH WORSE FOR DURAN. Even though he trained hard for the Marvin Hagler fight, he did not had that speed that he needed it for that fight, plus he was not in his prime and was already 32 years old. You cannot have a prime forever. You got to lose some of your abilities at some point. At 30 years old and going up in weight, is understandable to lose against a formidable fighter who is bigger,faster and as good as you.

[Goodnight, Irene]

^^^Which is exactly how it would pan out, Barry.

Whitaker's good enough to beat Duran --- but he wasn't that much better than Duran (probably, no one was) to beat the man, beat his popularity, and the judges' disdain for Whitaker all in one fight.

Whitaker would have to win a clean nine rounds in a 12-rounder to get the nod. Seven or eight, if he could snatch them from Duran's formidable clutches, wouldn't be enough, & the Duran fanatics know it perfectly well.

[Ezzard]

We're going to need a whole string of violins at this rate...

Your argument is that Duran and Whittaker were very close in ability. I think everyone agrees with that. But you don't like it that Duran is more popular. Have you seen them both fight? It's hardly an enigma as to why? Beyond that, one guy is from an extremely poor country and the other from the great engine of the world...

I don't care who someone prefers, why should you?

BarryW, how can Whittaker give Duran a harder fight than Hearns, Leonard or Hagler? You're guilty of everything you accuse the Duran fans of being. You have a fair argument but nobody is going to take it seriously when you're just as committed in your idolatory.

[Bricks]

We're going to need a whole string of violins at this rate...

Your argument is that Duran and Whittaker were very close in ability. I think everyone agrees with that. But you don't like it that Duran is more popular. Have you seen them both fight? It's hardly an enigma as to why? Beyond that, one guy is from an extremely poor country and the other from the great engine of the world...

I don't care who someone prefers, why should you?

.

Exactly one was boxings equivalent of Tony Montana, a guy who came up from nothing, who had all kind of stories surrounding him, who was larger than life, and for a hefty part of his career had the aura of invincibility he fought with a machismo and intensity that was intoxicating and had a charisma, any fighting man would admire.....than you have a skilled flamboyant guy called "pernell" who while exciting in the ring didnt really click in the same way with people.

[Ezzard]

We're going to need a whole string of violins at this rate...

Your argument is that Duran and Whittaker were very close in ability. I think everyone agrees with that. But you don't like it that Duran is more popular. Have you seen them both fight? It's hardly an enigma as to why? Beyond that, one guy is from an extremely poor country and the other from the great engine of the world...

I don't care who someone prefers, why should you?

BarryW, how can Whittaker give Duran a harder fight than Hearns, Leonard or Hagler? You're guilty of everything you accuse the Duran fans of being. You have a fair argument but nobody is going to take it seriously when you're just as committed in your idolatory.

Not committed in "idolatry" -- it's the truth. Styles make fights, my friend. Watch some more Whitaker fights to see why. I wish it could have happened, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to think Pernell would beat Duran.

How can it be "the truth"? They never fought. If you "wouldn't hesitate" then you're the one doing the overrating.

If Whittaker is going to do better than Hearns (and be Roberto's hardest fight) then he has to KO Duran in 1 round?

[elmersalsa]

I don't know why the fact people get pissed when making an imaginatory or dream match up of Duran vs someones else, Duran is seem invincible. I have never said that he is invincible. Every boxer in history, except the great Rocky Marciano has lost a fight.

I also get piss when making dream matchups for the greats Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard or Muhammad Ali, they never lose, either. I have never seen Ali nor Robinson lose a fight in this forum, but they got 27 losses between the two combined.

[Diamond WEAPON]

I don't know why the fact people get pissed when making an imaginatory or dream match up of Duran vs someones else, Duran is seem invincible. I have never said that he is invincible. Every boxer in history, except the great Rocky Marciano has lost a fight.

I also get piss when making dream matchups for the greats Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard or Muhammad Ali, they never lose, either. I have never seen Ali nor Robinson lose a fight in this forum, but they got 27 losses between the two combined.

Ricardo Lopez never lost a fight... And neither did Ottke or Calzaghe...

[Idisagree]

I don't know why the fact people get pissed when making an imaginatory or dream match up of Duran vs someones else, Duran is seem invincible. I have never said that he is invincible. Every boxer in history, except the great Rocky Marciano has lost a fight.

I also get piss when making dream matchups for the greats Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard or Muhammad Ali, they never lose, either. I have never seen Ali nor Robinson lose a fight in this forum, but they got 27 losses between the two combined.

Ricardo Lopez never lost a fight... And neither did Ottke or Calzaghe...

I just about to post the same thing, thanks Diamond.

I have a question; you mention 3 names Robinson, Leonard, and Ali, but then say 27 losses between the two combined. Your math needs improvement

Just kidding I hope you have some sense of humor