The Klits and boxers of yesteryear

[forcefraser]

Both Klits are huge, talented fighters. Their sheer physical supremacy over their recent opponents has made for very one sided fights against the suppossed "best" that the division can offer.

Given their size, ability and conditioning, how do you think they would have got on against the following smaller heavyweight champs of the past, in a 12 rounder.

Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier

Would the Klit`s physical advantages have been too much, even for these great fighters?

[SteveO]

MachoMan09 said it all. The Klitschko brothers would likely beat most of the 'old time' champions for those reasons.

[Captain Hook]

On a slightly different note I was watching some of Ike Ibeabuchi's fights the other day and wondering how he'd have done against the Klits and the other fighters in the division today....

I think he'd have had too much for the pair of them....

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think the likes of Marciano, Dempsey, Louis would be at a huge disadvantage - the Klits are both big, and skilled, Vitali may seem cumbersome at times, but he is very effective.

I think however, the likes of Tyson, only 215 or so in his prime, with his speed and immense physical strength for his weight, and numbing power, would have been another matter.

I think strength training which seems to have been now successfully incorporated into boxers training regimes, has a massive impact, the guys from 50's backwards were not really using it, and they lacked the power to weight ratio which modern fighters have.

[dookus]

On the flip side, the talent pool back then was a hell of a lot bigger - boxing in Dempsey's era was second only to horse racing in the US, and there were 5 or 10 times as many gyms back then.

(You could also talk about how if Dempsey or Louis were around now, they'd have access to all the modern nutrition and training methods too...)

[SteveO]

Yes, all that is true. If we are talking about the more modern heavyweights, then I think Foreman, Tyson, Holmes, and Ali could have beaten them. Plus of course Lennox Lewis (who did beat Vitali).

[bennie]

Tyson, 1988, as short as Louis, Marciano and Frazier, would have lost to those amazingly talented Klitschkos, right?

[overhand_right]

What is this modern obsession with size & weight?

Don't you think these huge guys would struggle with the pace, speed and movement of the solid great 200lb fighters of yesteryear?

What good was Jess Willards massive frame & 70lb weight advantage when Dempsey bobbed & weaved and unleashed short brutal power shots on his unmissable giant sized body?

I think guys like the Klitschko's would be sitting ducks for someone like Joe Louis who could counter with blistering knockout combinations over long jabs.

Look at the pace Sonny Liston and Eddie Machen were still fighting at in round 11. How on earth could a 250 lb giant cope with that sort of fight?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Tyson, 1988, as short as Louis, Marciano and Frazier, would have lost to those amazingly talented Klitschkos, right?

No I don't think so. His speed would have been his asset. Frazier would have struggled with Vitali's size and toughness, Wlad has always been more vulnerable, so I would have given Frazier a much better crack. Marciano would have struggled to get near them, he was slow of foot, and relied on durability and a terrific engine to get results.

I've always thought Frazier a little overrated based on his trilogy with Ali. His peak was like Tyson's rather brief, and he didn't face many of the vaunted punchers of his era. The one vaunted puncher of note he faced absolutely destroyed him.

Louis as good as he was, was very hittable. He did face one guy around Wlad's size, was it Abe Atell, i forget now.

I don't think comparing Vitali and Wlad with Jess Willard is a fair assessment. Willard was a farmhand who was plucked from obscurity by a promoter. Wlad and Vitali have been fighting in combat sports from a very early age.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yes, all that is true. If we are talking about the more modern heavyweights, then I think Foreman, Tyson, Holmes, and Ali could have beaten them. Plus of course Lennox Lewis (who did beat Vitali).

Totally agree.

Size difference wouldn't be a major problem in any of these fights.

Ali would have hammered Wlad and Vitali with ease. They'd never have gotten near him.

[JC]

Louis as good as he was, was very hittable. He did face one guy around Wlad's size, was it Abe Atell, i forget now.

Abe Simon and also Buddy Baer and Primo Carnera.

[yiddo14]

I agree with Machoman's assessment that sport in general has come a long, long way over the years, but I think Boxing could be the exception.

I think the skill level in Boxing has decreased over the years and I don't think the fitness of todays fighters is any better than those from yesteryear. The training techniques may have improved(althoguh Boxing compared to the majority of other sports still relies on what some might call primitive training methods)but fighters in the old days got their fitness levels up by doing what makes you fittest...fighting and fighting very often.

Vitali and Wlad would prove a hard nights work for most heavyweights due to their sheer size and power. I still find it hard to see emerging victorious from any mythical match up with the likes of Louis and Marciano though. Maybe it's a romantic view? Watching Louis throw the combinations he did or seeing the Rock come forward against anyone he ever faced throwing bombs for 15 rounds, it's hard to picture the plodding robots beat them. These guys forgot more about the art of Boxing than the two big brothers will ever know between them.

[Lenny]

I agree with Machoman's assessment that sport in general has come a long, long way over the years, but I think Boxing could be the exception.

I think the skill level in Boxing has decreased over the years and I don't think the fitness of todays fighters is any better than those from yesteryear. The training techniques may have improved(althoguh Boxing compared to the majority of other sports still relies on what some might call primitive training methods)but fighters in the old days got their fitness levels up by doing what makes you fittest...fighting and fighting very often.

Vitali and Wlad would prove a hard nights work for most heavyweights due to their sheer size and power. I still find it hard to see emerging victorious from any mythical match up with the likes of Louis and Marciano though. Maybe it's a romantic view? Watching Louis throw the combinations he did or seeing the Rock come forward against anyone he ever faced throwing bombs for 15 rounds, it's hard to picture the plodding robots beat them. These guys forgot more about the art of Boxing than the two big brothers will ever know between them.

also I think Smigga said it quite nicely a while back that fighters today just aren't as tough as they were. People are comparing the way the Klits fight against a guy like Sam Peter and making comparisons to how they would fair against the likes of Frasier - Peter's wild swings with the speed of a turning oil tanker against Frasier lighting left hook from a good defensive position. Eddie Chambers jab compared to that of Liston. Dempsey's explosiveness against that of Rahman...

If Joe Louis couldn't beat the Klitschkos then David Haye should pack in it now.

[Jeff Thomas]

I don't think size comes into it when your talking about Louis, Tyson, etc... They would love a great big static target in front of them like Vitali and with Wlads biscuit chin I think both would have moidered him.

[Raff The Frenchman]

The only ones I see beating the Klitschko's are Foreman, Frazier and Tyson. Marciano, despite pulling the win, would often take a beating before overcoming his exhausted opponents. He couldn't take such sustained punishment vs huge men with that much power.

[yiddo14]

You are basing that on Rock sitting back and allowing himself to be punished?

The biggest problem I have with any Marciano mythical match up is the size of the man. He was tiny for a Heavyweight. One thing is for certain, make Vitali and Wlad 5'10 and 190lb and the Rock kills them both at the same time inside, hmm I don't know, about 45 seconds!

Of the names listed I would put the house on Liston too.

[overhand_right]

Aye. Technique is something the old time fighters have over our current ones. Technique and fitness. For me, technique & fitness win a fight more than being massive and having bulging muscles.

Fighters of yesteryear didn't have rolls of lard and man tits like most of the top 10 do today because you simply could not compete on top level if you were in the horrible shape these 230-50lb lumps are.

For all the 'overwhelming evidence' of advancements one poster is citing (without providing any), graphs and stats and whatnot proving how superior modern boxers are, because they, like, lift weights now, consume protein supplements, and have nutritionists.... look at these guys:

10. Odlanier Solis - fat
9. Ruslan Chagaev - fat
8. Nikolay Valuev - indescribably fat
7. Dennis Boytsov
6. Chris Arreola - fat
5. Alex Povetkin - fat
4. Tomasz Adamek - light heavyweight who's skills have so far been more important than being simply a fat heavyweight
3. David Haye - cruiser, ditto
2. Vitali Klitschko
1. Wlad Klitschko

These guys, these 'modern athletes', would use their flab or muscle to destroy the heavies of yesteryear?

Really?

[ArtOfWar]

Interesting topic and it's a hard one to decide on. We don't really know how good the Klitschko's are, because they are fighting in such a weak era for heavyweights. We saw Vitali do very well against an out of shape Lennox Lewis, but apart from that there isn't much to go on. Then again a common mis-conception is that the greats of previous era's had such tough compeition when that is simply not true. Ali's era is the only one they was filled with top quality heavyweights. Marciano, Louis, Holmes, Tyson and Lewis all reigned supreme by beating opponants who were well beneath them most of the time.

My personal opinion is that George Foreman is the most menacing heavyweight of all-time and I'd favour him to beat both Klitschko's. In fact i'd pick him over any other heavyweight in history head to head. Had one night in history tunned out different he'd probably be the greatest of all-time. That may sound silly, but the circumstances were stacked against Foreman against Ali. People love to talk about Ali overcoming the odd's that night and he did, but everyone was in Ali's corner. Any other night and I think Foreman to beat Ali, the man was a beast. Not that it matters now of course.

As for the other guy's Ali, Holmes and Lewis would be good bet's. More modern heavyweights than Dempsey, Marciano, and Louis with more size to go with the skills. It's not even worth bringing Jack Johnson into consideration, he'd have been murdered. The fighting style of boxers back then was simply primitive.

[overhand_right]

Aye. Technique is something the old time fighters have over our current ones. Technique and fitness. For me, technique & fitness win a fight more than being massive and having bulging muscles.

Fighters of yesteryear didn't have rolls of lard and man tits like most of the top 10 do today because you simply could not compete on top level if you were in the horrible shape these 230-50lb lumps are.

For all the 'overwhelming evidence' of advancements one poster is citing (without providing any), graphs and stats and whatnot proving how superior modern boxers are, because they, like, lift weights now, consume protein supplements, and have nutritionists.... look at these guys:

10. Odlanier Solis - fat
9. Ruslan Chagaev - fat
8. Nikolay Valuev - indescribably fat
7. Dennis Boytsov
6. Chris Arreola - fat
5. Alex Povetkin - fat
4. Tomasz Adamek - light heavyweight who's skills have so far been more important than being simply a fat heavyweight
3. David Haye - cruiser, ditto
2. Vitali Klitschko
1. Wlad Klitschko

These guys, these 'modern athletes', would use their flab or muscle to destroy the heavies of yesteryear?

Really?

The topic is about the Klitschkos and the other top heavyweights throughout the sports history. If you want me to start rhyming out names of grossly overweight fighters from bygone days, I will, but what's the point, it's easy (Tony Galento, anybody).

You didn't read my post properly. I did not state that there was overwhelming evidence with regards to improvements in boxing at the elite level over the past decades. What I did say was that in all sports where data is there to be compared, there have been significant improvements. This is largely down to us having a better understanding of what it takes to train, develop and prepare athletes for competition. From that I assessed that is likely that the best boxers now would beat the best boxers of the past (with the possible exception of the recent past i.e last 25 years or so).

The boxers who are now at the top of their respective divisions have - without exception - had access to the premier information that is out there regarding sports science and the specific requirements of what it takes to prepare for a contest. Of course there are lesser fighters who are not training to their potential, but we are not discussing them here - well, you are, but I'm not.

There has been a near 7% improvement in the 100m sprint in the last 60 years; 50% in some weighlifting classes, 15% in the marathon, approximately 18% in the swimming pool etc etc. Were boxing to have failed to progress (at the elite level) or even regressed - I don't think it has - when all other sports are on an up curve, it would be a very strange phenomenon.

Finally, what's this 'bulging muscles' and 'protein supplement' stuff? What have 'bulging muscles' got to do with anything? Likewise, current research would suggest that the quantity of protein consumed by sportsmen in the 80s, 90s and early part of this century was almost certainly excessive and surplus to the quanities needed to repair muscle tissue.

Do you not think scientific understanding and advancement is a good thing?

Fights aren't won on boxers having access to 'premier information on sports science'.

What good were all these advancements when a 38 year old grossly out of shape Corrie Sanders was bouncing hercules off the floor? What did young powerful super-athlete Wladimir's access to all the things you speak of matter when faced with a man trying to tear his head off?

The technique, speed, fitness, and experience against real hard nuts that the old school fighters have, for me, would be a major advantage over the modern, inactive, media & image obsessed athletes.

[bennie]

I hate these threads because most people fail to recognise the fact that boxing – in terms of boxing craft and expertise - has actually regressed in the last few decades, which cancels out the inevitable physical advancements seen in heavyweight boxers over the same period. The Klitschkos, one of whom is about to fight Derek Chisora (laugh), beat opponents because they have size and strength and an inkling of the sport’s technique. There is no way in the world they would beat those heavies who truly mastered the ability to fight.

[Raff The Frenchman]

You are basing that on Rock sitting back and allowing himself to be punished?

The biggest problem I have with any Marciano mythical match up is the size of the man. He was tiny for a Heavyweight. One thing is for certain, make Vitali and Wlad 5'10 and 190lb and the Rock kills them both at the same time inside, hmm I don't know, about 45 seconds!

Of the names listed I would put the house on Liston too.

Indeed, never said the contrary, but guess what, physical gift is part of a boxer. Make Toney as athletic as David Haye and he kills anybody.
Make Floyd Mayweather 6'7 with Mike Tyson's power and he beats all the HWs etc etc...
That comment of yours was pretty useless sorry.

[yiddo14]

You are basing that on Rock sitting back and allowing himself to be punished?

The biggest problem I have with any Marciano mythical match up is the size of the man. He was tiny for a Heavyweight. One thing is for certain, make Vitali and Wlad 5'10 and 190lb and the Rock kills them both at the same time inside, hmm I don't know, about 45 seconds!

Of the names listed I would put the house on Liston too.

Indeed, never said the contrary, but guess what, physical gift is part of a boxer. Make Toney as athletic as David Haye and he kills anybody.
Make Floyd Mayweather 6'7 with Mike Tyson's power and he beats all the HWs etc etc...
That comment of yours was pretty useless sorry.

No need to apologise, it wasn't meant to be earth shattering news or even that relevant. I was merely highlighting the brothers' lack of technichal quality when comparing them against truly elite fighters(not that Marciano was exactly the prime example of a technically sound fighter!)

Incidently, James Toney was easily as athletic as David Haye is at one point in his career. Haye isn't a supreme athlete.

[Ezzard]

Problem with sports data is that it’s not really the point in a debate like this.

Athletes today are on all kinds of enhancers (legal or otherwise) that their predecessors did not have access to. Now, I don’t know if Bolt is a better sprinter than Owens, but saying Bolt is better because his time is better is akin to saying that I’m a better driver than Sterling Moss because my car is faster…or I’m more intelligent than Einstein and Newton because they didn’t know how to use a mobile phone.

You need to have a sense of perspective and make some attempt to understand the eras and circumstances of each man’s career.

I honestly believe that the Klit brothers would be a major test for any Heavyweight from any era. I think they are underrated and under appreciated.

[Deserter]

I hate these threads because most people fail to recognise the fact that boxing – in terms of boxing craft and expertise - has actually regressed in the last few decades, which cancels out the inevitable physical advancements seen in heavyweight boxers over the same period. The Klitschkos, one of whom is about to fight Derek Chisora (laugh), beat opponents because they have size and strength and an inkling of the sport’s technique. There is no way in the world they would beat those heavies who truly mastered the ability to fight.

If your theory is correct Bennie (and I'm not saying it isn't), I'd be really curious to find out what people believe is the cause of this regression, as it's pretty much unique in sporting terms if true.
For example, has TV had a detrimental influence in terms of putting pressure on boxers and their teams to deliver knockouts and action at the expense of skill - there's certainly no doubt that the likes of 'Sweet Pea' didn't ever get the mainstream exposure or financial rewards their skill-set and achievements deserved and this can surely only have been down to their style.

[Raff The Frenchman]

You are basing that on Rock sitting back and allowing himself to be punished?

The biggest problem I have with any Marciano mythical match up is the size of the man. He was tiny for a Heavyweight. One thing is for certain, make Vitali and Wlad 5'10 and 190lb and the Rock kills them both at the same time inside, hmm I don't know, about 45 seconds!

Of the names listed I would put the house on Liston too.

Indeed, never said the contrary, but guess what, physical gift is part of a boxer. Make Toney as athletic as David Haye and he kills anybody.
Make Floyd Mayweather 6'7 with Mike Tyson's power and he beats all the HWs etc etc...
That comment of yours was pretty useless sorry.

No need to apologise, it wasn't meant to be earth shattering news or even that relevant. I was merely highlighting the brothers' lack of technichal quality when comparing them against truly elite fighters(not that Marciano was exactly the prime example of a technically sound fighter!)

Incidently, James Toney was easily as athletic as David Haye is at one point in his career. Haye isn't a supreme athlete.

No Toney wasn't as athletic, he was just slim. I was speaking about Toney at HW. Thing is the bigger you are, the less athletic you become. Its very rare to have a big fighter who can also move fast, be light on his feet etc.
You could also say that if Marciano was 6'7, he might have never done anything.
And that's precisely why Vitali and Wlad are so dominant and hard to beat. They are both big men, who can move really quick and show a lot of skill, while any other HW at that size would look lumbering and slow as fornicate, like Valuev.