Does Riddick Bowe Deserve To Get Into The Hall Of Fame?

[hhaehre]

He was one punch away from losing the third fight. I couldn't call anything that close to being a different result clear.

In the first fight when both were in peak condition Bowe won clearly, he was the better man head to head imo.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He was one punch away from losing the third fight. I couldn't call anything that close to being a different result clear.

In the first fight when both were in peak condition Bowe won clearly, he was the better man head to head imo.

Do you think Holyfield was clearly better than Tyson? Neither was in their prime. But it wasn't remotely competitive.

A peak condition Riddick Bowe was a monster, and I'd favor him against most in mythical fights. But it wasn't how he routinely entered the ring. I have no issue with someone saying Bowe was better head to head. He could have gotten the nod in the second fight. But there is nothing clear about it that I can see.

Bowe definitely came out of the trilogy the worst for wear. No disputing that.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He was one punch away from losing the third fight. I couldn't call anything that close to being a different result clear.

In the first fight when both were in peak condition Bowe won clearly, he was the better man head to head imo.

I have to say, this surmises it here. In top-form & undefeated, they met. Bowe was better by a clear margin, though the bout was still pretty competitive.

In the rematch, Bowe was in visibly poor condition --- & won the fight on my card. It was razor-thin in Holyfield's favour, officially.

The third fight, in all fairness, Holyfield deserves a pass on. He did fairly well, all things considered. He just wasn't upto it on the night.

Still & all, with both at their best, Bowe emerged the better man, IMO.

[The Great John L]

I don't know whether he ever did or not. Assuming he did not, I maintain it is nevertheless a titanic leap of faith to believe that a guy whose body developed the way Lewis's did was clean throughout his career. I guess reasonable minds can differ on that point but, to me, it seems obvious.

I'm struggling to see what you are referring to about his body developing throughout his career. He turned pro at 23 and weighed about 230. Ten years later he was weighing between 240 and 250, and many times looked soft. You can think you want, but he hardly experienced any type of unusual growth in his career, and I find it rather silly that you could come to the conclusion that his modest growth over a 14 year career indicates the use of PEDS.

We don't, and I didn't present the issue as a confirmed fact. But if you look at the guy's body over the course of his career, I think you have to concede that he never looked the part. Just never had that kind of physique. Again, however, I guess reasonable minds can differ.

James Toney "never looked the part" either. Of course I wasn't actually accusing Bowe of anything, just using the hypothetical question to challenge your silly accusation against Lewis.

[Mr E]

I'm struggling to see what you are referring to about his body developing throughout his career. He turned pro at 23 and weighed about 230. Ten years later he was weighing between 240 and 250, and many times looked soft. You can think you want, but he hardly experienced any type of unusual growth in his career, and I find it rather silly that you could come to the conclusion that his modest growth over a 14 year career indicates the use of PEDS.

Look man, I'm not sure why you want to turn this into a hostile exchange by throwing around a word like "silly" but c'est la vie. What I find "silly" is the number of people who want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that wide-spread PED abuse hasn't existed in across the entire spectrum of professional athletics for the last 2 decades. Bearing in mind that there's more to it than weight gain alone (see Alberto Contador and Marion Jones for 2 pretty obvious examples), but note that Lewis turned pro at about 230, trimmed down a bit as he started really hitting his stride (221 for Weaver), then bulked up to an easy 256 1/2 for Klitschko. Take another look at him as an amatuer and then again toward the end of his career and ask yourself in all honesty whether you really think he was clean. I don't know, maybe he was ... but I very severely doubt it.

James Toney "never looked the part" either. Of course I wasn't actually accusing Bowe of anything, just using the hypothetical question to challenge your silly accusation against Lewis.

Yes, yes, I got it. What I don't get is what exactly you are trying to convey with the James Toney reference? Are you saying you concede Toney was juiced but, notwithstanding his enormous weight gain and gigantic increase in muscle development in his old age, he didn't 'look the part'? You're going to have to develop that one a little further.

[hhaehre]

He was one punch away from losing the third fight. I couldn't call anything that close to being a different result clear.

In the first fight when both were in peak condition Bowe won clearly, he was the better man head to head imo.

Do you think Holyfield was clearly better than Tyson? Neither was in their prime. But it wasn't remotely competitive.

He he, well I don't and I can see how that sometimes will come back and bite me in the @ss. The first Tyson-Holyfield fight was competitive for a while but of course in the end Holyfield broke Tyson down and won it in emphatic fashion. I really don't think Tyson was that far removed from his prime on the night but he did not put his punces together like he had in his peak years. I think he could have put Holyfield away early in his absolute prime but it is by no means a certainty and if the fight goes past 5 rounds Holyfield wins every time.

Bowe definitely came out of the trilogy the worst for wear. No disputing that.

That's true, Bowe never looked the same again.

[The Great John L]

Yes, yes, I got it. What I don't get is what exactly you are trying to convey with the James Toney reference? Are you saying you concede Toney was juiced but, notwithstanding his enormous weight gain and gigantic increase in muscle development in his old age, he didn't 'look the part'? You're going to have to develop that one a little further.

Hardly, because Toney's weight gain was mostly around his middle and he was actually caught using PEDs. You said Bowe didn't look the part of a "juicer", and I stated that neither did Toney, which most reasonable people would agree with.

My whole point is that your attack on Lewis as being some type of cheater is nothiong short of outrageous, and your claims that he somehow looked the part because of his "development" is silly. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I think making completely unjustified claims against an ATG like Lewis is certainly more offensive to any true bxoing fan.

[Mr E]

Hardly, because Toney's weight gain was mostly around his middle and he was actually caught using PEDs. You said Bowe didn't look the part of a "juicer", and I stated that neither did Toney, which most reasonable people would agree with.

My whole point is that your attack on Lewis as being some type of cheater is nothiong short of outrageous, and your claims that he somehow looked the part because of his "development" is silly. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I think making completely unjustified claims against an ATG like Lewis is certainly more offensive to any true bxoing fan.

It's just not true that Toney's weight gain was "mostly around his middle." He wasn't ripped but he got huge--one look at the guy was enough to tell anyone he was juiced and his getting busted was completely predictable and surprised no one.

PED use was widespread in the late 1980s and, most people believe, has sky-rocketed since and there are examples in every sport, including boxing. I'm certainly not the first person, nor am I going to be the last, to form the conclusion that Holyfield, Tyson, and Lewis, among others, were using. We'll see whether a story ever breaks on one or more of those guys but I think the evidence is there and, as I said before, seems pretty clear to me, given all the factors. You call the notion "silly," I think the opposite notion is "naive," but I'm willing to leave it at that.

[Ezzard]

I have to admit that my feeling is that PEDs, legal or otherwise, are a huge aspect of all sports.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

There is no doubt that they are and have been for years. I have little doubt that a high percentage of urine tests for Boxing don't even get tested at all. Certainly were not in the past.

I remember kids juicing in my high school in the mid 80's just for high school Football and others just trying to gain some weight to help with girls. I decided to ignore PED's and concentrate on the sports I love. That works for me.

A brief comment on Toney, his looked to have more muscle tone at 217 than he did at 175. That there is a body type or eye test for juicing is sooooooo 1990. The majority of Boxers would probably be using EPO, which isn't going to blow you up with water weight. Not to mention the thousands of designer drugs that we don't even know about. But I thought it was pretty clear that Toney was juiced up myself.