It's 1921...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Yeah...because that's the reason I give Foreman the odds, as I so patently specified

OK, then why would you favor Foreman?

"It is to Wills' great historical advantage that he never actually shared na ring with Dempsey."

The above is the truly bizarre statement. Not fighting the most popular fighter of his time didn't help Wills in any way.

[The Great John L]

Yeah...because that's the reason I give Foreman the odds, as I so patently specified

OK, then why would you favor Foreman?

"It is to Wills' great historical advantage that he never actually shared na ring with Dempsey."

The above is the truly bizarre statement. Not fighting the most popular fighter of his time didn't help Wills in any way.

I'm guessing that Irene is implying that Wills would have gotten beaten, and therefore his legacy would have been tarnished.

Of course, although certainly possible, there is absolutely no evidence that would indicate that Wills would have been anything but a nightmare for Dempsey, other than Dempsey's own greatness. Wills beat a much longer list of world class HWs than all but a handful of other ATGs, and excelled against a variety of styles. Some of his contemporary critics may have been critical of him, but the same can be said of any fighter.

Although Wills was probably a bit on the decline in '21, he would have still been more than a handful for even the great Dempsey.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

OK, then why would you favor Foreman?

"It is to Wills' great historical advantage that he never actually shared na ring with Dempsey."

The above is the truly bizarre statement. Not fighting the most popular fighter of his time didn't help Wills in any way.

I'm guessing that Irene is implying that Wills would have gotten beaten, and therefore his legacy would have been tarnished.

Of course, although certainly possible, there is absolutely no evidence that would indicate that Wills would have been anything but a nightmare for Dempsey, other than Dempsey's own greatness. Wills beat a much longer list of world class HWs than all but a handful of other ATGs, and excelled against a variety of styles. Some of his contemporary critics may have been critical of him, but the same can be said of any fighter.

Although Wills was probably a bit on the decline in '21, he would have still been more than a handful for even the great Dempsey.

I know what he meant, it just doesn't make any sense. Losing to dempsey wouldn't shame him or take away his accomplishments. What it would have done is enhanced Dempsey's legend even further.

That's like saying if Alexis arguello would have fought and lost to Roberto duran it would have sullied his legacy.

[The Great John L]

I know what he meant, it just doesn't make any sense. Losing to dempsey wouldn't shame him or take away his accomplishments. What it would have done is enhanced Dempsey's legend even further.

That's like saying if Alexis arguello would have fought and lost to Roberto duran it would have sullied his legacy.

Arguello and Duran weren't both at, or near, the top of the LW division at the same time.

If Wills had fought and lost to Dempsey then there would be few that would now say that Dempsey avoided him and that he was a great threat to him. And there is a lot of support for that theory. I don't believe that Dempsey personally avoided him, but I'm pretty sure that it's likely that the people controlling the sport wouldn't allow the fight. There were no promoters at that time who wanted another black HW champion.

If anything, it's likely that even if he lost, Wills would have given Dempsey hell.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I know what he meant, it just doesn't make any sense. Losing to dempsey wouldn't shame him or take away his accomplishments. What it would have done is enhanced Dempsey's legend even further.

That's like saying if Alexis arguello would have fought and lost to Roberto duran it would have sullied his legacy.

Arguello and Duran weren't both at, or near, the top of the LW division at the same time.

If Wills had fought and lost to Dempsey then there would be few that would now say that Dempsey avoided him and that he was a great threat to him. And there is a lot of support for that theory. I don't believe that Dempsey personally avoided him, but I'm pretty sure that it's likely that the people controlling the sport wouldn't allow the fight. There were no promoters at that time who wanted another black HW champion.

If anything, it's likely that even if he lost, Wills would have given Dempsey hell.

They probably would have fought if not for Vilomar Fernandez upsetting Alexis. It was quite close to happening. I wasn't saying the situations where identical. Just a another scenario of a fight that almost was where one guy is rated higher than the other.

I get that sentiment would have changed. Any hypothetical replaced by a fact would obviously do that. But Wills doesn't find himself ahead of dempsey on many lists as it is. Losing to him wouldn't alter his standing, beating him would have.

[The Great John L]

I get that sentiment would have changed. Any hypothetical replaced by a fact would obviously do that. But Wills doesn't find himself ahead of dempsey on many lists as it is. Losing to him wouldn't alter his standing, beating him would have.

Good point.

[raylawpc]

Irene is certainly capable of speaking for himself, but I think he meant that, had Dempsey fought him and shelled him - as Irene and I think would have happened - he would be remembered as just another guy that Dempsey beat. Now, he is remembered as a guy who some folks think would have/could have defeated the great Jack Dempsey.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Like I said, I know what he meant. He would still be remembered as more than just another Dempsey victim. He beat many of them in his own right. Obviously the claims of Jack ducking him would go away, but that would be a positive all the way around. Chances of him offering up no opposition in the fight are pretty small imo anyway. But if he did, his standing wouldn't be affected. Losing to revered champions in a dominant manner isn't a death blow to a resume.

[dempseyfire]

Irene is certainly capable of speaking for himself, but I think he meant that, had Dempsey fought him and shelled him - as Irene and I think would have happened - he would be remembered as just another guy that Dempsey beat. Now, he is remembered as a guy who some folks think would have/could have defeated the great Jack Dempsey.

Wills's definitely had the best resume of any fighter Dempsey defeated during his title reign, with only Miske having a resume in the same league. Even if he'd lost he'd be touted as Jack's greatest victory.

[Ambling Alp]

Getting beat badly almost always hurts your legacy, assuming the losing fighter was close to his prime. Wills still would be thought of highly, but not quite as highly if he would have lost badly to Dempsey.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Not on any reasonable rating system. The only possible change would be people that have him over dempsey. Jack's legacy would be enhanced, harry's wouldn't diminish a bit if Dempsey knocked him out in 20 seconds.

[Ezzard]

Wills lost to the more nimble Langford and only really turned the series around as Sam went over the brow of the hill. I don't think that really effects his standing as a great fighter.

With mulitple belts being thrown around these days Wills' "Coloured Championship" might be viewed in relationship with the "World Championship" as WBA to WBC...

[Mr E]

No. 1, I don’t know why you find it doubtful either of these guys saw Wills in the 1920s. Grantland Rice was a middle-aged man in the 1920s, and had been a sportswriter for several years. He had seen Wills many times, I am sure. Ray Arcel was active in the game as a young man in the 1920s. I saw Ron Lyle, George Foreman, Kenny Norton, Muhammad Ali, Oscar Bonavena et al. live when I was in my 20s, and worked with a few of them, and I can remember them pretty well. Why was that kind of recollection beyond Ray Arcel’s capacity?

Also, I think you are forgetting the basic premise of Ezz’s thread: Who would have won if these guys had actually fought in the mid-1920s. (I know, he wrote 1921, but he added, “If the historians among you think the year for this fight is inappropriate then please suggest another.” The hue-and-cry for a Wills-Dempsey fight was strongest circa 1924-1925.) I think had Wills and Dempsey fought anytime between 1922-1925, Dempsey would have taken him apart within five rounds.

I think ray has it right.

[ben geoghegan]

If Dempsey could beat him that easily all he had to do was make the match. He didn't. The money was there. Wills obviously wanted it. Dempsey's side presented all the obstacles yet Wills made no demands. A fighter doing that today would be roundly criticised. I don't know who wins but a lot of those journalists were paid by managers back then. Like calling Wills a journeyman. Some alcoholic sports writer's crooked commentary doesn't constitute scientific evidence. The records are all we have to go by and there's no comparison there: Wills level of competition reaches the A class, Dempsey's is B class and lower. The one great he fought he didn't win one round against. Give me one McVey, Dempsey. One Langford. Toss a Jeannette in there. Just one Jeff Clark. None.
That weighs against him. You can only massage actual journeymen like Carl Morris and Porky Flynn into top boxers so Far.

[zdream]

This Is Dempsey Record
66 Wins (51 T(KO)'s, 14 decisions , 1 disqualification), 6 Losses (1 T(KO), 5 decisions), 11 Draws[21][hide]
Date Result Opponent Location Method Round Time Record
1927-09-22 Loss United States Gene Tunney Soldier Field, Chicago, IL Decision (Unanimous) 10 3:00 66-6-11
Fight was for NBA and World Heavyweight titles.
1927-06-21 Win United States Jack Sharkey Yankee Stadium, The Bronx, NY KO (Left hook) 7 (15) 0:45 66-5-11
1926-09-23 Loss United States Gene Tunney Sesquicentennial Stadium, Philadelphia, PA Decision (Unanimous) 10 3:00 65-5-11
Lost NBA and World Heavyweight titles.
1923-09-14 Win Argentina Luis Ángel Firpo Polo Grounds, New York City, NY KO (Short right) 2 (15) 0:57 65-4-11
Retains New York State Athletic Commission and World Heavyweight titles
1923-07-04 Win United States Tommy Gibbons Shelby, MT Decision (Unanimous) 15 3:00 64-4-11
1922-07-24 Win United States Jimmy Darcy Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY Decision 4 3:00 63-4-11
Wins NYSAC Heavyweight title.
1921-07-02 Win France Georges Carpentier Boyle's Thirty Acres, Jersey City, NJ KO (Right hook) 4 (12) 62-4-11
Retains World Heavyweight title and won NBA Heavyweight title.
1920-12-14 Win United States Bill Brennan Madison Square Garden, New York City, NY KO (Body punches) 12 (15) 1:57 61-4-11
Retains World Heavyweight title.
1920-09-06 Win United States Billy Miske Benton Harbor, MI KO (Right hook) 3 (10) 1:13 60-4-11
Retains World Heavyweight title.
1919-07-04 Win United States Jess Willard Bay View Park Arena, Toledo, OH TKO (Corner stoppage) 3 (12) 3:00 59-4-11
Wins World Heavyweight title.
1919-04-02 Win United States Tony Drake New Haven, CT KO 1 0:11 58-4-11
1919-02-13 Win United States Eddie Smith Altoona, PA KO 1 57-4-11
1919-01-29 Win United States Kid Henry Easton, PA KO 1 56-4-11
1919-01-23 Win United States Kid Harris Rajah Theater, Reading, PA KO 1 (3) 55-4-11
1919-01-22 Win United States Jack Hickey Orpheum Theater, Harrisburg, PA KO 1 (3) 54-4-11
1919-01-15 Win United States Jim Maguire Grand Theatre, Trenton, NJ KO 1 (3) 1:00 53-4-11
1918-12-29 Win United States Gunboat Smith Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY KO (Short right) 2 (8) 52-4-11
1918-12-16 Win United States Carl E. Morris Louisiana Auditorium, New Orleans, LA KO (Left hook) 1 (20) 51-4-11
1918-11-28 Win United States Billy Miske Olympia Club, Philadelphia, PA Decision 6 50-4-11
1918-11-18 Win United States Dan Flynn Olympia Club, Philadelphia, PA KO (Left hook) 1 (6) 2:16 49-4-11
1918-11-06 Win United States Battling Levinsky Olympia Club, Philadelphia, PA KO (Right punch) 3 (6) 48-4-11
1918-09-14 Win United States Jack Moran Moana Springs Arena, Reno, NV KO 1 (10) 47-4-11
1918-09-13 Loss United States Willie Meehan San Francisco Civic Auditorium, San Francisco, CA Decision 4 3:00 46-4-11
1918-08-17 Win United States Terry Kellar Westwood Field Gym, Dayton, OH TKO 5 (15) 46-3-11
1918-07-27 Win United States Fred Fulton Federal League Baseball Park, Harrison, NJ KO (Right hook) 1 (8) 0:18 45-3-11
1918-07-06 Win United States Dan Flynn Atlanta Auditorium, Atlanta, GA KO 1 (10) 44-3-11
1918-07-04 Win United States Bob Devere Joplin, MO KO 1 (12) 43-3-11
1918-07-01 Win United States Kid McCarthy Tulsa, OK KO 1 (12) 42-3-11
1918-05-22 Win United States Dan Ketchell Excelsior Springs, MO KO 2 (10) 1:00 41-3-11
1918-05-20 Win Canada Arthur Pelkey Stockyards Stadium, Denver, CO KO 1 (15) 1:00 40-3-11
1918-05-03 Draw United States Billy Miske Auditorium, St. Paul, MN Decision draw 10 3:00 39-3-11
1918-03-25 Win United States Tom Riley Joplin, MO KO 1 (15) 39-3-10
1918-03-06 Win United States Fred Saddy Memphis, TN KO 1 (8) 38-3-10
1918-02-25 Win United States Bill Brennan Auditorium, Milwaukee, WI TKO 6 (10) 37-3-10
1918-02-14 Win United States Fireman Jim Flynn Fort Sheridan, IL KO 1 (10) 1:10 36-3-10
1918-02-04 Win United States Carl Morris Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY Disqualification 6 (10) 35-3-10
1918-01-24 Win United States Homer Smith Racine, WI KO 1 (10) 1:55 34-3-10
1917-11-02 Win United States Carl Morris Dreamland Rink, San Francisco, CA Decision 4 3:00 33-3-10
1917-10-02 Win United States Gunboat Smith Recreation Park, San Francisco, CA Decision 4 3:00 32-3-10
1917-09-26 Win United States Bob McAllister Arena, Emeryville, CA Decision 4 3:00 31-3-10
1917-09-19 Win United States Charley Miller Arena, Emeryville, CA KO 1 (4) 30-3-10
1917-09-07 Draw United States Willie Meehan Dreamland Rink, San Francisco, CA Decision draw 4 3:00 29-3-10
1917-08-10 Draw United States Willie Meehan Dreamland Rink, San Francisco, CA Decision draw 4 3:00 29-3-9
1917-08-01 Win United States Al Norton Arena, Emeryville, CA KO 1 (4) 29-3-8
1917-07-25 Win United States Willie Meehan Arena, Emeryville, CA Decision 4 3:00 28-3-8
1917-04-11 Draw United States Al Norton West Oakland Club, Oakland, CA Decision draw 4 3:00 27-3-8
1917-03-28 Loss United States Willie Meehan Arena, Emeryville, CA Decision 4 3:00 27-3-7
1917-03-17 Draw United States Al Norton West Oakland Club, Oakland, CA Decision draw 4 3:00 27-2-7
1917-02-13 Loss United States Fireman Jim Flynn Murray, UT KO (Right hook) 1 (15) 0:10 27-2-6
1916-11-28 Win United States Young Hector Salida, CO KO 2 (10) 27-1-6
1916-10-16 Win United States Dick Gilbert Salt Lake Theater, Salt Lake City, UT Decision 10 3:00 26-1-6
1916-10-07 Win United States Terry Kellar Ely, NV Decision 10 3:00 25-1-6
1916-09-28 Win United States Young Hector Murray Fire Hall, Murray, UT TKO (Retired) 3 (10) 24-1-6
1916-07-14 Draw United States John Lester Johnson Harlem Sports Club, New York City, NY Decision Draw 10 3:00 23-1-6
1916-07-08 Win United States Bert Kenny Fairmont Athletic Club, The Bronx, NY Decision 10 3:00 23-1-5
1916-06-24 Win United States Andre Anderson Fairmont Athletic Club, The Bronx, NY Decision 10 3:00 22-1-5
1916-05-30 Win United States Bob York Elko Theater, Price, UT KO 4 (6) 21-1-5
Billed for Pacific Coast Light Heavyweight title.
1916-05-17 Win United States Dan Ketchell Provo, UT KO 3 (6) 20-1-5
1916-05-03 Win United States Terry Kellar Alhambra Theater, Ogden, UT Decision 10 3:00 19-1-5
Billed for World Light Heavyweight title.
1916-04-08 Win United States Joe Bonds Ely, NV Decision 10 3:00 18-1-5
1916-03-17 Win United States George Christian Elko Theater, Price, UT KO 1 (15) 17-1-5
1916-03-09 Win United States Cyril Kohen Mozart Theatre, Provo, UT KO 4 (6) 16-1-5
1916-02-23 Win United States Boston Bearcat Armory, Ogden, UT KO 1 (4) 15-1-5
1916-02-21 Win United States Jack Downey Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT KO (Right punch) 2 (4) 14-1-5
1916-02-01 Win Sweden Johnny Sudenberg Bijo Hall, Ely, NV KO 2 (10) 13-1-5
1915-12-20 Win United States Jack Gillian Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT TKO 1 (4) 12-1-5
1915-12-13 Draw United States Jack Downey Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT Decision draw 4 3:00 11-1-5
1915-11-19 Win United States George Copelin Cripple Creek, CO KO 6 (10) 11-1-4
1915-10-23 Win United States Andy Malloy Montrose, CO KO 3 10-1-4
1915-10-07 Win United States Andy Malloy Gem Theater, Durango, CO Decision 10 3:00 9-1-4
1915-08-01 Win United States Fred Woods Moose Hall, Montrose, CO KO 4 8-1-4
1915-06-11 Draw Sweden Johnny Sudenberg Tonopah, NV Decision draw 10 3:00 7-1-4
1915-05-31 Draw Sweden Johnny Sudenberg Goldfield, NV Decision draw 10 3:00 7-1-3
1915-04-26 Win United States Emmanuel Campbell Jockey Athletic Club, Reno, NV TKO (Referee stoppage) 4 (4) 7-1-2
1915-04-05 Loss United States Jack Downey Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT Decision 4 3:00 6-1-2
1915-04-01 Win United States Chief Gordon Utah KO 6 6-0-2
1915-03-03 Win United States Johnny Pierson Utah KO 7 5-0-2
1915-02-26 Draw United States Laverne Collier Pocatello, ID Decision draw 4 3:00 4-0-2
1915-02-02 Win United States Joe Lyons Utah KO 9 4-0-1
1915-01-01 Win United States Jim Johnson Salt Lake City, UT KO 1 3-0-1
1914-11-30 Win United States Billy Murphy Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT KO 1 (4) 2-0-1
1914-11-02 Win United States Young Hancock Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT KO 1 (4) 1-0-1
1914-08-17 Draw United States Young Herman