Fans, coaches and boxers will be glad to know that AIBA is getting rid of the current ESS. It will be replaced by a scoring system that does NOT use the 1 second window. It will basically be judges using electronic clickers and the computer taking the 3 scores that are the most similar (I don't know how they define that critereia and how the program will decide which ones to use) and then average those three scores at the end of each round. It is being referred to as the "Similar Score Method". The score will only be displayed at the conclusion of each round. So no longer will there be a running score. This is a vast improvement. Everyone got upset when they saw a punch land, but no score appeared on the screen. The one second window had a lot to do with that problem and its gone.
The new system willl be used at all major AIBA events in 2011 and beyond. The national federations, including USA Boxing, will be required to use it starting in January 2012. This systme is closer to clicker scoring (really it is just an electronic version that uses the middle three scores of the 5 judges and averages them) than the current ESS.
ESS going away - this is good news
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DCAmateurBoxing
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1145
- Joined: 10 May 2008, 02:37
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
I like this a lot, but if they are making the change in 2011, that means the Olympics, so shouldn't USAB make this change asap?? Where is the money for the system goign to come from for USAB. The ESS Systems are costly and even though the calculation of points from this new system will be different it sounds like it still needs very similar functionality and it still sounds costly. Where is this information published?Dennis wrote:Fans, coaches and boxers will be glad to know that AIBA is getting rid of the current ESS. It will be replaced by a scoring system that does NOT use the 1 second window. It will basically be judges using electronic clickers and the computer taking the 3 scores that are the most similar (I don't know how they define that critereia and how the program will decide which ones to use) and then average those three scores at the end of each round. It is being referred to as the "Similar Score Method". The score will only be displayed at the conclusion of each round. So no longer will there be a running score. This is a vast improvement. Everyone got upset when they saw a punch land, but no score appeared on the screen. The one second window had a lot to do with that problem and its gone.
The new system willl be used at all major AIBA events in 2011 and beyond. The national federations, including USA Boxing, will be required to use it starting in January 2012. This systme is closer to clicker scoring (really it is just an electronic version that uses the middle three scores of the 5 judges and averages them) than the current ESS.
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
The new system should be a lot less complicated as the system no longer needs to worry about the 1 second windows opening and closing. Now just let the judges hit their buttons and then the program analyzes the judges scores after each round and averages the scores of the three judges that are most similar to each other. Therefore the systems shouldn't be nearly as expensive as the old ESS systems. I am hopeful that the new systems will be inexpensive enough that most LBC's will have multiple units and some clubs will even have them to use at shows. Plus these systems are much closer to clicker scoring so the boxers will be used to the scoring system by boxing at club shows with the judges using clickers.
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
Kullen - you are correct that USA Boxing should start using the new system as soon as possible.
As far as where the information about the new scoring sytem came from, it comes right from AIBA. They posted the basic facts about the system after the 2010 Congress ended in early November 2010.
As far as where the information about the new scoring sytem came from, it comes right from AIBA. They posted the basic facts about the system after the 2010 Congress ended in early November 2010.
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
Few things:
a- there is no expectation at buying 'new' systems. I believe this will either be a software patch, or a configuration option in the existing system. So I don't anticipate any money outlay by USAB.
b- while your summation of the scoring change is accurate, I don't know that we've seen a formal 'specification' from AIBA yet. So there may be additional details we don't know, not so much on what the new scoring methodology will be, but how it will work on the ESS. (i.e. the technical details)
c- The USAB ESS team is aware of the changes and we're already planning what will need to happen to accommodate these changes.
That said, I wonder if AIBA has given any thought to unintended consequences. The reason (good or bad) behind the 1 sec window, was to, in theory, create 'objective scores.' I hope that, under the new methodology, they've taken into account ways one could adversely game the system.
By the way, just because I'm an ESS tech does not mean that I actually LIKE the old system, and I could go off on a huge rant on how crappy the software itself is.
a- there is no expectation at buying 'new' systems. I believe this will either be a software patch, or a configuration option in the existing system. So I don't anticipate any money outlay by USAB.
b- while your summation of the scoring change is accurate, I don't know that we've seen a formal 'specification' from AIBA yet. So there may be additional details we don't know, not so much on what the new scoring methodology will be, but how it will work on the ESS. (i.e. the technical details)
c- The USAB ESS team is aware of the changes and we're already planning what will need to happen to accommodate these changes.
That said, I wonder if AIBA has given any thought to unintended consequences. The reason (good or bad) behind the 1 sec window, was to, in theory, create 'objective scores.' I hope that, under the new methodology, they've taken into account ways one could adversely game the system.
By the way, just because I'm an ESS tech does not mean that I actually LIKE the old system, and I could go off on a huge rant on how crappy the software itself is.
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
I believe AIBA has considered the ramifications of doing away with the 1-second window vs allowing it to continue to hurt our sport which is why it has taken so long to get rid of it. Part of the delay was probably related to AIBA convincing the IOC that the 1-second window was causing more harm than good.
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
As was stated above, the systems will not be new. The software will be configuredd to accommodate the new method of scoring. The current systems will not come down in price. There is a grant proposal to purchase the Brazilian system for the LBCs. It will run around $1200 as opposed to the $3000+ for the AIBA system currently being used by USA Boxing. I also don't believe that the IOC had anything to do with any delay. All they care about is that the scoring is computerized - not how it's configured. Stay tuned.I am hopeful that the new systems will be inexpensive enough that most LBC's will have multiple units and some clubs will even have them to use at shows
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
Well it is a start to improve this crap scoring system which is killing amateur boxing. Dennis, I am not sure if you got more info than what I cut and paste from the AIBA website:
Approval of New Scoring System
A new electronic scoring system was presented to the Congress delegates by the
Chairman of AIBA Technical & Rules Commission, Mr Franco Falcinelli, system
which will remove the 1-second window for counting scoring blows and the
electronic evaluation of judges, leaving the judges free to concentrate fully on
scoring the bouts. The revisions mean that running scores will no longer be
displayed during bouts, which will prevent coaches from encouraging passive
defense and thus make the boxing action more exciting. The New Scoring
System was adopted by a large majority.
It does not say there will be scores posted at the end of the round. It just says that running scores will not be posted which I totally agree with. That was part of the big problem. If they show the score at the end of the round, you will still get the running in the last round. I just hope they cover all of the screens with the running score, their so called spy camera which shows when each judge pushes their red or blue button. Before the days of open scoring, all of the cheating countries would have guys in position to get the scores from a computer or TV screen and signal their corner.
Another important improvement is the removal of the judges evaluation which is the reason for the low scores in Beijing which I wrote about in my report after '08. The bottom line was if you scored a few punches higher than the other judges, it really affected your evaluation and as a judge, you got sat down. That is one of the reasons they did not score body shots or jabs. One very good judge from Trinidad scored all of the body shots Andrade and Raynell Williams scored in their bouts when the other judges did not so he ended up on 4-1's and his score was much higher than the other judges and he got cut which was total BS. Hopefully the judges will now score higher and more importantly they will score the body shots and jabs. But at the end of the day, the cheaters will still find a way to cheat.
Approval of New Scoring System
A new electronic scoring system was presented to the Congress delegates by the
Chairman of AIBA Technical & Rules Commission, Mr Franco Falcinelli, system
which will remove the 1-second window for counting scoring blows and the
electronic evaluation of judges, leaving the judges free to concentrate fully on
scoring the bouts. The revisions mean that running scores will no longer be
displayed during bouts, which will prevent coaches from encouraging passive
defense and thus make the boxing action more exciting. The New Scoring
System was adopted by a large majority.
It does not say there will be scores posted at the end of the round. It just says that running scores will not be posted which I totally agree with. That was part of the big problem. If they show the score at the end of the round, you will still get the running in the last round. I just hope they cover all of the screens with the running score, their so called spy camera which shows when each judge pushes their red or blue button. Before the days of open scoring, all of the cheating countries would have guys in position to get the scores from a computer or TV screen and signal their corner.
Another important improvement is the removal of the judges evaluation which is the reason for the low scores in Beijing which I wrote about in my report after '08. The bottom line was if you scored a few punches higher than the other judges, it really affected your evaluation and as a judge, you got sat down. That is one of the reasons they did not score body shots or jabs. One very good judge from Trinidad scored all of the body shots Andrade and Raynell Williams scored in their bouts when the other judges did not so he ended up on 4-1's and his score was much higher than the other judges and he got cut which was total BS. Hopefully the judges will now score higher and more importantly they will score the body shots and jabs. But at the end of the day, the cheaters will still find a way to cheat.
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
JMac - I saw reports from people who were at the Congress and from the media regarding the new scoring system. I am not sure that it is 100% accurate until we get official word from AIBA on all the details. The main point is that things are changing and the 1 second window is GONE. Here is info from The Hindu:
"Transparent
Now, the spectators and coaches will not be able to see any running score displayed on a screen during each round. However, after the end of each round, scores of both the boxers calculated by the computer by using the ‘mean' of three similar scores will be displayed for the spectators."
The link to the article is: http://www.thehindu.com/sport/other-spo ... 871080.ece
"Transparent
Now, the spectators and coaches will not be able to see any running score displayed on a screen during each round. However, after the end of each round, scores of both the boxers calculated by the computer by using the ‘mean' of three similar scores will be displayed for the spectators."
The link to the article is: http://www.thehindu.com/sport/other-spo ... 871080.ece
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
I think we're just going to have to wait and see. I'm at the women's international event this week and Christy Halbert (AIBA Women's Commission member) and Dr. Robin Goodfellow (AIBA Medical Commission) both say that the scores will not be shown at all to anyone.Now, the spectators and coaches will not be able to see any running score displayed on a screen during each round. However, after the end of each round, scores of both the boxers calculated by the computer by using the ‘mean' of three similar scores will be displayed for the spectators."
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
I hope they are correct as I think open scoring leads to the running and boring boxing in the last round that fans hate.
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
I have a friend from another country who wrote to AIBA asking questions about what is happening with ESS. Here is the questions and response:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXXXXXXX
Sent: 18 November 2010 07:11
To:
Subject: New AIBA computer scoring system
Dear ,
I write on behalf of xxxxx in regards to the new Computer Scoring System. AIBA is to commence using the new system with effect 2011 and XXX wish to also commence using the new system as soon as possible. Accordingly, could you please advise on the following:
· Patch for current program (cd/dvd/internet download)
o Is a patch available; if so, what is the cost?
o If a patch is available and ordered, what is the delivery time?
o Is the patch multi-use (can it be used to update numerous computers/current programs)?
o If the current program is ‘patched’ is there any additional information/tools/peripherals required to commence using?
· New computer scoring system
o What is the cost?
o What is the availability?
o What is the delivery time?
o Is it a stand-alone system or does it require a laptop/computer to operate?
I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest opportunity.
Kind Regards,
XXXXXX
Dear XXXX
Thank you for your interest but unfortunately I cannot answer all your questions straight away as we are still in the finalization process with Swiss Timing about the technical features regarding updating the current system. What I can tell you is that Swiss Timing will develop a cd-rom with software that can be installed on current scoring computer. This will update the current version with the new scoring system. When you do so you can only use the new system from then on. This means that the cd-rom can be used for multiple computers if you would have more Swiss Timing scoring systems.
In any case, AIBA will sent this cd-rom free of charge to all NFs as soon as available. We will try to do so in 2010, if not we hope that we can sent this beginning of 2011.
As mentioned during the congress, AIBA will also provide a simplified scoring machine which does not require any computer and or printer. It will contain just one small unit with a display that calculates the scores within the new method. To this unit, the same pare of Judges Keypads will be connected to register the individual scores for the judges. AIBA will also sent one version free to all NFs but following that you can order multiple devices yourself, depending your needs/request.
The interesting thing about this unit is that it is cheap, easy to use and does not require any additional investments like computer, monitor, printers etc. However, for bigger tournaments or televised or international tournaments the computer version is recommended, the small unit is more for club level use.
At this moment I cannot inform you when these will be made available as we concentrate on the development of the CD-rom first and producing around 200 single units will take some more time. In any case we will try to develop this as soon as possible in 2012.
I hope this answers some of your most urgent questions and hopefully I will be able to inform you and all other NFs as soon as possible with the progress.
Thank you very much for your understanding.
Kind regards,
Sports Director
International Boxing Association
Avenue de Rhodanie 54
1007 Lausanne
Switzerland
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXXXXXXX
Sent: 18 November 2010 07:11
To:
Subject: New AIBA computer scoring system
Dear ,
I write on behalf of xxxxx in regards to the new Computer Scoring System. AIBA is to commence using the new system with effect 2011 and XXX wish to also commence using the new system as soon as possible. Accordingly, could you please advise on the following:
· Patch for current program (cd/dvd/internet download)
o Is a patch available; if so, what is the cost?
o If a patch is available and ordered, what is the delivery time?
o Is the patch multi-use (can it be used to update numerous computers/current programs)?
o If the current program is ‘patched’ is there any additional information/tools/peripherals required to commence using?
· New computer scoring system
o What is the cost?
o What is the availability?
o What is the delivery time?
o Is it a stand-alone system or does it require a laptop/computer to operate?
I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest opportunity.
Kind Regards,
XXXXXX
Dear XXXX
Thank you for your interest but unfortunately I cannot answer all your questions straight away as we are still in the finalization process with Swiss Timing about the technical features regarding updating the current system. What I can tell you is that Swiss Timing will develop a cd-rom with software that can be installed on current scoring computer. This will update the current version with the new scoring system. When you do so you can only use the new system from then on. This means that the cd-rom can be used for multiple computers if you would have more Swiss Timing scoring systems.
In any case, AIBA will sent this cd-rom free of charge to all NFs as soon as available. We will try to do so in 2010, if not we hope that we can sent this beginning of 2011.
As mentioned during the congress, AIBA will also provide a simplified scoring machine which does not require any computer and or printer. It will contain just one small unit with a display that calculates the scores within the new method. To this unit, the same pare of Judges Keypads will be connected to register the individual scores for the judges. AIBA will also sent one version free to all NFs but following that you can order multiple devices yourself, depending your needs/request.
The interesting thing about this unit is that it is cheap, easy to use and does not require any additional investments like computer, monitor, printers etc. However, for bigger tournaments or televised or international tournaments the computer version is recommended, the small unit is more for club level use.
At this moment I cannot inform you when these will be made available as we concentrate on the development of the CD-rom first and producing around 200 single units will take some more time. In any case we will try to develop this as soon as possible in 2012.
I hope this answers some of your most urgent questions and hopefully I will be able to inform you and all other NFs as soon as possible with the progress.
Thank you very much for your understanding.
Kind regards,
Sports Director
International Boxing Association
Avenue de Rhodanie 54
1007 Lausanne
Switzerland
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
Jim - I have heard that the cost for ther new ESS will run around $800.00. I wonder if this is for the the smaller stand alone, sans monitor or printer, versions..... Thanks for posting the info!
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atlanta coach
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 79
- Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 00:54
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
I find this interesting, and anything has to be better than the old scoring system. Will this new scoring system lead to higher scores? If its more like a clicker (without the 1 second) it seems like this would be beneficial to the busier boxer.. Scores wont be posted after rounds - this would lead to some exciting boxing in that you'll have to box hard all 3 rounds.. The price of the units are reasonable so that they are afordable to the LBC's. This could change a lot of things leading into the olympics - some boxers will have to make a real adjustment to this scoring system in a short amount of time. If you like to put a shield up and box at a slow pace you will probably have to change it up..
Last edited by atlanta coach on 20 Nov 2010, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
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DCAmateurBoxing
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1145
- Joined: 10 May 2008, 02:37
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
I like it and I know that alot of coaches like knowing what the score is so that they can adjust--and I agree with that. But strictly as a fan this change will definitely make for much more exciting bouts because boxers will have to actually box for 3 full rounds now. Hopefully this will bring back excitement to amateur boxing. I can't wait to see this system in action.atlanta coach wrote:I find this interesting, and anything has to be better than the old scoring system. Will this new scoring system lead to higher scores? If its more like a clicker (without the 1 second) it seems like this would be beneficial to the busier boxer.. Scores wont be posted after rounds - this would lead to some exciting boxing in that you'll have to box hard all 3 rounds.. The price of the units are reasonable so that they are afordable to the LBC's. This could change a lot of things leading into the olympics - some boxers will have to make a real adjustment to this scoring system in a short amount of time especially guys who like to put a shield up and box at a slow pace.
Re: ESS going away - this is good news
Rumor has it that the scores will be determined by throwing out the high and the low and averging the remaining. This should insure higher scoring numbers.Will this new scoring system lead to higher scores? If its more like a clicker (without the 1 second) it seems like this would be beneficial to the busier boxer..