stujones wrote:JMM might not have got the decision, but he showed a blue print to beat Manny. JMM is slicker than most of Manny's recent foes, Floyd's a shit load more slicker than JMM.
You could argue, and I did think it for a while, that DLH has shown the blueprint to beat Floyd - but the more I see Floyd, the more I think that might have been Floyd at two higher a weight category and on an off night. People thought Hatton had the workrate to cause problems, wrong. People thought Mosley had the speed to cause problems... wrong. Since DLH, Mayweather has looked electric.
Off course, Pacquiao has looked fantastic - I aint saying its a walk in the park.... it NEEDS to happen.
JMM showed a blueprint to beat Pacquiao back then. I think Pacman has improved greatly since the Marquez fights.
Mayweather has to avoid Pacman's punches for 12 rounds, but I can't see it happening. I can see Pacman hurting Mayweather just like Mosley did, but Pacman won't gas like the old man and follow through with the stoppage.
I don't think Mosley gassed when he troubled Mayweather... what was it the 2nd round? He showed he could do 12 rounds quite well still in his last fight, back at the weight he doesn't box comfortably at (never has done).
Mayweather's recovery and response doesn't get enough credit and its that response that makes me think he can beat Manny. He isn't a light puncher. Whilst he will not be the strongest guy he has ever faced, I think he will be the sharpest puncher and I think capable of making the Great man think.
Mosley did say getting Mayweather hurt early was his downfall, but I don't think it was cause of a lack of gas - cause we saw a completely different Mayweather, a Mayweather who upped it, a Mayweather who responded like a fighter. Took everyone by surprise, none more so than Mosley. Before that moment it was quite nip and tuck.
As good as Manny has looked in his last few fights, Mayweather is a different story again.
Manny`s speed and volume of punches are immense and it looks like he can take the power shots aswell now. He basically just beat margarito up, the same way he did to Cotto.
Clottey only escaped the same fight because he cam to survive. At least Cotto and Maragrito cam to fight and tried to win.
Mayweather however, will have too much in defense and too much skill for Manny. Mayweather is an incredible talent and it will take him a few rounds to work manny out, before he implements a strategy to win. He would win by a comfortable points victory or possibly a late stoppage.
Pacquiao was incredible. Prior to this I thought Mayweather would beat him due to his ability to control the range and tempo of a fight and the fact that Manny can get frustrated when he has to go looking for someone. I now favour Manny as I think his pressure, speed and power will get to Floyd.
I also think Floyd doesn't really want it. If he did the fight would have been made already. If Floyd's all about the money, as he says, it's the only fight for him. If he's about his legacy - which he denies - it's still the only fight for him.
I think Margarito is despicable for the way he cheated but have to give credit where it's due and say he showed tremendous pride and courage in there. It highlighted for me that he really didn't need to cheat in the first place and the cost to his reputation was unecessary. It reminded me to a degree of something interesting that British Cycling's Performance Director said when asked how they succeed with clean athletes in a sport that has had it's share of drug scandals. He basically said that it's an attitude thing, the British Cycling mentality is that they leave no stone unturned in preparation and every cyclist takes to the line knowing they've done everything possible to win. He said that those that cheat don't have that mentality and look to cut corners in preparation and take a short-cut to success, therefore a clean athlete can approach the race with confidence rather than feeling defeatist.
stujones wrote:I don't think Mosley gassed when he troubled Mayweather... what was it the 2nd round? He showed he could do 12 rounds quite well still in his last fight, back at the weight he doesn't box comfortably at (never has done).
Mayweather's recovery and response doesn't get enough credit and its that response that makes me think he can beat Manny. He isn't a light puncher. Whilst he will not be the strongest guy he has ever faced, I think he will be the sharpest puncher and I think capable of making the Great man think.
Mosley did say getting Mayweather hurt early was his downfall, but I don't think it was cause of a lack of gas - cause we saw a completely different Mayweather, a Mayweather who upped it, a Mayweather who responded like a fighter. Took everyone by surprise, none more so than Mosley. Before that moment it was quite nip and tuck.
I've only seen the Mosley PBF fight once, and couldn't believe how easily Mayweather got let off the hook. I thought at the time Shane had gassed, but will watch it again. Hadn't Shane been inactive for over a year since the fight against Margarito? At the age of 38, that surely had a big impact. The fight against Mora was only four months after the Floyd fight, and he was really poor anyway so I don't think it's the best way to measure his engine.
I just can't see Manny letting Floyd off the hook. No chance he'd stop throwing after hurting Mayweather, which in essence is what Shane did, even though Floyd did box well.
How long as it been since Mayweather fought someone decent who is natuarally the same weight class as him? I can't remember one for ages and then all I seem to remember is him fighting fighters who are has beens.
People talk about Manny not fighting fighters at their best but come on they might not be at their best but all of these fighters are natuarally heavier than Manny. He fought someone who is a real decent fighter last night and weighed 17lbs heavier than Manny and Manny beat him to a pulp. Has Mayweather ever fought someone as good as Margarito and weigh 17lbs lighter? I don't think so.
All the same fighters Manny and Mayweather have fought, Manny have beaten them better than Mayweather, yes he's fought most of them at a latter stage of their career but that doesn't mean to say that they are automatically spent fighters as on most occassions fighters improve after a defeat.
Manny has been hit by bigger and stronger men than Mayweather when you compare their sizes so I can see no reason why he wouldn't be able to handle Mayweathers punches and if it went to points I can't see Mayweather outpointing him either as Manny is the far busier fighter.
I really desprately want the fight to happen but doubt it will but I can imagine that if Manny did beat Mayweather people would then just say that Mayweather is the older man and is now officially past it because Manny has beaten him. Just the same as what happens when British fighters beat big names or have great records it's always they fought them past their best and all this crap. Why can't people give credit where credit's due.
On the subject of the fight I thought it was an outstanding points win performance when at times when he started to look tired he picked up a gear.
ourkid1984 wrote:How long as it been since Mayweather fought someone decent who is natuarally the same weight class as him? I can't remember one for ages and then all I seem to remember is him fighting fighters who are has beens.
People talk about Manny not fighting fighters at their best but come on they might not be at their best but all of these fighters are natuarally heavier than Manny. He fought someone who is a real decent fighter last night and weighed 17lbs heavier than Manny and Manny beat him to a pulp. Has Mayweather ever fought someone as good as Margarito and weigh 17lbs lighter? I don't think so.
All the same fighters Manny and Mayweather have fought, Manny have beaten them better than Mayweather, yes he's fought most of them at a latter stage of their career but that doesn't mean to say that they are automatically spent fighters as on most occassions fighters improve after a defeat.
Manny has been hit by bigger and stronger men than Mayweather when you compare their sizes so I can see no reason why he wouldn't be able to handle Mayweathers punches and if it went to points I can't see Mayweather outpointing him either as Manny is the far busier fighter.
I really desprately want the fight to happen but doubt it will but I can imagine that if Manny did beat Mayweather people would then just say that Mayweather is the older man and is now officially past it because Manny has beaten him. Just the same as what happens when British fighters beat big names or have great records it's always they fought them past their best and all this crap. Why can't people give credit where credit's due.
On the subject of the fight I thought it was an outstanding points win performance when at times when he started to look tired he picked up a gear.
Very true that. Really there are very few fights where both fighters are at their peak, and even when they are there can still be revisionism after the fact i.e. Jeff Lacy. Most people's careers can be pulled apart when using the 'how many did he fight at their peak / best weight' argument.
That's why it would be such a shame if these two don't fight soon.
If Mayweather is inactive much longer, then there would be an argument for saying that a Manny win was no longer against a peak Mayweather. Floyd has four times in four years, and is now 33. He has looked after himself, but he can only lose the sharpness he relies on.
Manny is still seemingly hungry - is Floyd hungry for anything other than money.
At the moment, I make Pacman a very very slight favourite - he's at the absolute top of his game, and great as mayweather is, I wonder if he has the stomach for the type of fight I think Pacman can force him into. I don't think Floyd will be able to deter manny with a few well placed hard shots, as I think Manny has improved a lot in the last couple of years, and is now much harder to keep off due to his footwork.
I think Floyd is tough, he's had to gut it out a few times, but he's so good that those moments are very brief, and he tends to work out a solution very quickly. I just think that with Pacman, the only solution is to fight back hard and hit him often enough to prevent him swarming. Marquez in recent years is the only man to do that, even Mayweather treated the much smaller Marquez with respect.
I also think the move up in weight has benefitted Manny, he's obviously a bit of a physical freak in that he was able to shed so much weight earlier in his career. He's grown into a genuine small Welter, but think that at 147, he'll be fine against Mayweather.
Mayweather would be the SHARPEST puncher than the fighters Manny has faced. Not as strong, but sharper. Margarito, Cotto, Clottey, Hatton are wear you down type of fighters. Sharpness of punch is a lot different to just sheer strength. Compare Kostya Tszyu and Manny Pacquaio for example. Kostya was a pretty sharp puncher, no doubt - but not as sharp as Manny... compare their fights with Ricky. I would say Kostya was as strong and as big as Manny.
Similarly, look at Mosley. Took Miguel Cotto's shots all night in an ultra competitive fight, same as he took Margarito's.... hurt far more often against Mayweather. Another strong fighter, Joshua Clottey - a monster at 147.... Pacquiao had Margarito in far more problems than Clottey did, although Cotto was in trouble vs Clottey though not as much as he was vs Pacquiao. Pacquiao is a sharp sharp puncher more so than strong. Accurate, fast, and gets the punches you cannot see. I think Floyd has faced more sharp punchers than Pacquiao... nearly all of them have given him something to think about (Judah and Mosley). Pacquiao has faced, since his move up, "plodders" in the main (we are talking some tremendous fighters, but not the sharpest punchers). DLH was the sharpest punching fighter on paper he faced in a while, but he wasn't himself.
I think your first paragraph is a little bit of a contradiction, you mention the "size" difference between Floyd and his opponents, but at the same time mention they've all been "has been's".
Floyd was naturally the smaller man against Oscar, Shane, Ricky (how many people PRE fight commented on how much bigger Ricky looks), Baldomir, and I would say of the same size as Zab, Sharmba Mitchell etc. Really the only one in recent times who was significantly smaller was JMM.
Floyd got practically zero credit for beating arguably the #1 Welterweight at the time, back in most peoples P4P's top #5 in Shane Mosley. I predicted he would, of course Shane was a ring rusty fighter - yeah so ring rusty he nailed Floyd in the second. Manny is getting more credit in beating a small Light Middleweight who had fought once in a year and looked awful in that fight.
Manny DESERVES all the credit he gets..... Floyd deserves some also though. Undoubtedly if they never fight - Manny deserves to go down as the higher ranked fighter - but Floyd aint beaten a pile of nobodies either.
Floyds a small 147 lbs fighter. I'm convinced could make 140 - just hasn't needed to.
Utterly brilliant in almost every department, I'm starting to get the feeling that there isn't anything he can't achieve in a boxing ring. Absolutely awe-inspiring.
Without wishing to take anything away from Margarito's undoubted bravery, the focus should be heavily on all of the amazing attributes Manny showed on the night.
stujones wrote:Mayweather would be the SHARPEST puncher than the fighters Manny has faced. Not as strong, but sharper. Margarito, Cotto, Clottey, Hatton are wear you down type of fighters. Sharpness of punch is a lot different to just sheer strength. Compare Kostya Tszyu and Manny Pacquaio for example. Kostya was a pretty sharp puncher, no doubt - but not as sharp as Manny... compare their fights with Ricky. I would say Kostya was as strong and as big as Manny.
Similarly, look at Mosley. Took Miguel Cotto's shots all night in an ultra competitive fight, same as he took Margarito's.... hurt far more often against Mayweather. Another strong fighter, Joshua Clottey - a monster at 147.... Pacquiao had Margarito in far more problems than Clottey did, although Cotto was in trouble vs Clottey though not as much as he was vs Pacquiao. Pacquiao is a sharp sharp puncher more so than strong. Accurate, fast, and gets the punches you cannot see. I think Floyd has faced more sharp punchers than Pacquiao... nearly all of them have given him something to think about (Judah and Mosley). Pacquiao has faced, since his move up, "plodders" in the main (we are talking some tremendous fighters, but not the sharpest punchers). DLH was the sharpest punching fighter on paper he faced in a while, but he wasn't himself.
I think your first paragraph is a little bit of a contradiction, you mention the "size" difference between Floyd and his opponents, but at the same time mention they've all been "has been's".
Floyd was naturally the smaller man against Oscar, Shane, Ricky (how many people PRE fight commented on how much bigger Ricky looks), Baldomir, and I would say of the same size as Zab, Sharmba Mitchell etc. Really the only one in recent times who was significantly smaller was JMM.
Floyd got practically zero credit for beating arguably the #1 Welterweight at the time, back in most peoples P4P's top #5 in Shane Mosley. I predicted he would, of course Shane was a ring rusty fighter - yeah so ring rusty he nailed Floyd in the second. Manny is getting more credit in beating a small Light Middleweight who had fought once in a year and looked awful in that fight.
Manny DESERVES all the credit he gets..... Floyd deserves some also though. Undoubtedly if they never fight - Manny deserves to go down as the higher ranked fighter - but Floyd aint beaten a pile of nobodies either.
Floyds a small 147 lbs fighter. I'm convinced could make 140 - just hasn't needed to.
All 3excellent points, I agree with just about everything said here.
THEBUTCH wrote:Pacquiao is a modern day living legend .
Utterly brilliant in almost every department, I'm starting to get the feeling that there isn't anything he can't achieve in a boxing ring. Absolutely awe-inspiring.
Without wishing to take anything away from Margarito's undoubted bravery, the focus should be heavily on all of the amazing attributes Manny showed on the night.
Absolutely, but I know it won't and I aint budging on my stance that he should be in Jail and never allowed to box, however I do hope people see Margarito aint a bad boxer and a strong so and so without illegal hand wraps. I do hope it goes some way in people thinking "you know, maybe he didn't cheat in ALL of his fights".
But yes.... I guess the reason why I've hijacked this thread to give Mayweather some (overdue IMO) dues is cause Manny's performances leaves me speechless. He's up there with anyone IMO.
...and Colin Hart finally came good in saying Manny is as good as anyone he's seen in his 40 years covering boxing + Margarito should have been pulled out at the end of the 10th.
Christ really! That's quite something. If Colin gives Manny credit, then really, he must be special, because I've rarely heard Hart speak in glowing terms of anyone in the modern fight game.
Havent seen the fight, but i am surprised AM lasted the distance. After the brutal beating by Mosley last year I though some of his resiliance would have gone.
Hard to believe Pac Man is the same fighter who needed a dodgy referee to get past Hussein 10 years ago.
Mayweather v Pac..... two modern legends, I have always leaned towards Mayweather as I think he is the more intelligent fighter of the two.
It does make Mosley's performance all the more impressive, and demonstrates just how hard Shane must hit. I know there was the kerfuffle with the hand wraps which can't have helped Antonio, but even so, Shane's stoppage is pretty amazing all things considered.
For me Margarito probably has the best chin in the sport. Ok, we now know he isn't bomb proof, but my god he can take severe punishment. There's a big difference to those who are tough and can last the distance, but Margarito really puts himself out there and still takes an incredible amount shifting.
