My tuppence on Audley - The spitbucket

[jamesmcdonnell]

Well, it had to happen, finally the sheer paucity of any type of challenge has prompted me to get off my arse and actually start my blog. It's a bit primitive right now, and there's only the one article mind, but hey, had to start somewhere.

Hope you enjoy. If not, let me know!

http://bucketofspit.blogspot.com

[Matt W]

Good stuff James, but..

"James' earliest memories of boxing are seeing Frank Tate being stopped in the 15th and final round of his heavyweight title defence against Mike Weaver"

Seriously though, I enjoyed the article. I especially agree with your point about not wanting to be Audley. I may be soft but I do have a lot of sympathy for him as a person, if not as a boxer. Regardless of his ultimately dire professional career he has achieved more than most could dream of - only in boxing can an Olympic Gold later come to be seen as almost worthless - and seems a decent bloke. He'll be pilloried over here and seen as a joke for many years to come which is going to be a very hard thing to live with. He has been his own worst enemy in this respect due to the way he's talked but I've always thought that was as much to do with trying to convince himself as anything else, he never appeared to be a confident fighter in the ring or in his selection of opponents.

I hope that he can find peace with himself and enjoy his family.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Whoopsie! That's a bit of a howler! Thanks for that. Editorial rigour never was my strong point mate! Must correct!

[stujones]

I still cannot help but feel annoyed at the lack of balance sometimes in boxing. Audley was quite possibly a millionaire BEFORE he turned pro, most definately a multi millionaire after his first contract with the BBC (where he fought bums).

I reckon his bank balance is a lot plusher than true warriors like Rocky Juarez or someone like that. Just doesn't seem "right".

I know what your saying James, but no - I'd gladly swap places with Audley. Especially after I had my meeting with my new head of faculty today discussing the recession and how its IS going to mean job cuts.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I still cannot help but feel annoyed at the lack of balance sometimes in boxing. Audley was quite possibly a millionaire BEFORE he turned pro, most definately a multi millionaire after his first contract with the BBC (where he fought bums).

I reckon his bank balance is a lot plusher than true warriors like Rocky Juarez or someone like that. Just doesn't seem "right".

I know what your saying James, but no - I'd gladly swap places with Audley. Especially after I had my meeting with my new head of faculty today discussing the recession and how its IS going to mean job cuts.

Each to their own Stu. I may be broke - but at least I wasn't sat in a dressing room with tears running down my cheeks after having been utterly humiliated in front of thousands in attendance and hundreds of thousands on air.

Audley parlayed his gold medal into loads of cash, the public and tv stations are culpable in buying into his baloney, despite the evidence of his fights. I feel deep down there is something rather sad and pathetic about Audley. Money won't buy him peace of mind after that humiliation.

[dbf]

Good piece James, enjoyed it. Audley was suited to the AM's and probably only went pro to cash in not through any real desire. Always thought his frame wasn't big enough, he's got skinny arms and legs.

The finish from Haye also dissapointed me somewhat - he lacks that composure that great fighters have when closing the show - he just swarms and throws wild shots rather than picking them a little more carefully. He also seems to land shots behind the head when doing this.

Despite stopping Ruiz, Barett and Macrinelli, I had hoped we might see a clean KO this time to help demonstrate his power, but when he smells the other guy is hurt he just swarms him.

[stujones]

I know, I don't think it was that big a fight in world wide sense. He can lick his wounds where nobody really has much of an idea whats happening. He's that delousional that he can drown his sorrows in some bar in LA and say how the ref robbed him.... he said something similar for the first Sprott fight - complained cause the ref didn't execute the count (doesn't matter he was on the floor for about 2 minutes requiring oxygen if I remember).

In a way, this is not much more of a loss than the Williams one. Williams vs Audley had been built up for years and years on terrestial TV. These were the two "natural rivals" - all of those interviews on the BBC.... then 12 million viewers on free TV to watch him fight like a baby. He was expected to beat Williams, and unlike Haye, Williams was crap also.

What annoys me was that first BBC contract - best of luck to the Amateurs getting the best deal possible after Olympic success. But you cannot really say the public shouldn't have bought the hype based on previous knowledge - nobody knew what Audley could do in the pro's - and he became a multi millionaire in the process.

His place in British boxing will be that of an enigma.... not in terms of his ability - there is nothing enigmatic about it - he hasn't got the bottle end of. However, he brought back the BBC's interests in proffesional boxing, he also ended it! But in the meantime earned too much money for those "contests".

[jamesmcdonnell]

I know, I don't think it was that big a fight in world wide sense. He can lick his wounds where nobody really has much of an idea whats happening. He's that delousional that he can drown his sorrows in some bar in LA and say how the ref robbed him.... he said something similar for the first Sprott fight - complained cause the ref didn't execute the count (doesn't matter he was on the floor for about 2 minutes requiring oxygen if I remember).

In a way, this is not much more of a loss than the Williams one. Williams vs Audley had been built up for years and years on terrestial TV. These were the two "natural rivals" - all of those interviews on the BBC.... then 12 million viewers on free TV to watch him fight like a baby. He was expected to beat Williams, and unlike Haye, Williams was crap also.

What annoys me was that first BBC contract - best of luck to the Amateurs getting the best deal possible after Olympic success. But you cannot really say the public shouldn't have bought the hype based on previous knowledge - nobody knew what Audley could do in the pro's - and he became a multi millionaire in the process.

His place in British boxing will be that of an enigma.... not in terms of his ability - there is nothing enigmatic about it - he hasn't got the bottle end of. However, he brought back the BBC's interests in proffesional boxing, he also ended it! But in the meantime earned too much money for those "contests".

The evidence of Audley's lack of concomitant skills and atrributes was clear fairly early on, as was his choice of terrible and totally non threatening opposition. The public were gullible in the extreme to believe he had anything to offer as an opponent for Haye.

[jamesmcdonnell]

For the rest of his days, Audley will try and convince anybody who will listen, including himself, that the referee jumped in too early. That is his one psycholgical get-out clause. "I got knocked down...beat the count...Haye relaunched his offensive and the referee stopped the fight. I could've carried on..." or words to that effect will be spouted whenever (if ever) Audley reappears from his post-fight mourning period.

If he fails to convince himself of the above, he is a potential suicide candidate, in my view.

Of that, I have no doubt. I'm counting down the clock until we hear that from Audley. It's why I almost wished the ref let it go on, so that there could be no excuses when Audley was pummelled into unconsciousness.

I'm certain he will mention being hit on the back of the head too.

[stujones]

Absolutely, but he earned his money long long long before that. Before he fought Mike Middleton. Cannot really say "stupid boxing fans for believing the hype" back then.

He should never have been allowed to fight that callibre of opponent for the length of time that he did - stupid BBC really.

Yeah, James Degale apparently earned a lot of money before turning pro vs Warren - well done. However, he is at least going for it - 8 fights in and he's fighting a world ranked British champion. Thats really what the BBC should have enforced - especially as Audley promised as much.

Before he hit someone in anger without the head gear he was a multi millionaire and thats what infuriorates me. Okay, to get their man TV companies/promoters have to pay lots up front - probably not as much as Audley received, but lots. However, in the most part - fighters have repaid them and proved themselves quite quickly. The Middleton through to Brian Nix was an appauling first 2 years a "World rated prospect" has ever had really in terms of opponents - the BBC should have done something about it. Amir Khan's first 2 years was ridiculued - but he did fight Willie Limond at this time.

The public continuing to pay in their droves (mainly to see him getting chinned) some flak for the more recent "comebacks" etc - but its the BBC that lined his pockets, without any evidence what he could do... and after that contract - we still knew nothing.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Absolutely, but he earned his money long long long before that. Before he fought Mike Middleton. Cannot really say "stupid boxing fans for believing the hype" back then.

He should never have been allowed to fight that callibre of opponent for the length of time that he did - stupid BBC really.

Yeah, James Degale apparently earned a lot of money before turning pro vs Warren - well done. However, he is at least going for it - 8 fights in and he's fighting a world ranked British champion. Thats really what the BBC should have enforced - especially as Audley promised as much.

Before he hit someone in anger without the head gear he was a multi millionaire and thats what infuriorates me. Okay, to get their man TV companies/promoters have to pay lots up front - probably not as much as Audley received, but lots. However, in the most part - fighters have repaid them and proved themselves quite quickly. The Middleton through to Brian Nix was an appauling first 2 years a "World rated prospect" has ever had really in terms of opponents - the BBC should have done something about it. Amir Khan's first 2 years was ridiculued - but he did fight Willie Limond at this time.

The public continuing to pay in their droves (mainly to see him getting chinned) some flak for the more recent "comebacks" etc - but its the BBC that lined his pockets, without any evidence what he could do... and after that contract - we still knew nothing.

The BBC were woefully underprepared, they didn't have the knowledge to know shit from Shinola, they should have had someone on board who knew about boxing, as then they wouldn't have allowed Audley to hand pick all his opponents, and promote himself. That was a massive massive cock up.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I've just read the statement that Ian has posted up from Audley. He does say that Haye caught him "clean around his guard" and he does mention the referee's intervention. That can be politically spun in the future to "back of the head" and "premature stoppage".

Groan Didn't take long did it?

Actually, having read it, think Audley is being pretty realistic about what happened. It may not last as the awful truth sets in, but for the time being, he is admitting the faster, better man battered him and the ref did the right thing in stopping it.

[oliverfennell]

The Middleton through to Brian Nix was an appauling first 2 years a "World rated prospect" has ever had really in terms of opponents - the BBC should have done something about it.

A sportsman's challenge for you: find a heavyweight prospect with a better average standard of opposition over the same number of fights.

There may be a few, but I can guarantee there won't be many.

[stujones]

Are we defending Audley's opponents on his initial BBC contract now? And it depends on your notion of few fights - are we talking first two/three of first 15?

I don't know many "prospects" who turn pro at the age of 30 and declare themselves to be British champion in 5 fights.... and you know something - it wasn't laughed about by the press at the time, because at his age and with his attributes and the state of the heavyweight boxing domestically at the time... it should have been a realistic claim.

Degale is much younger, so less time for him to rush, and is fighting a pretty solid British champion who is ambitious himself, in a much more competitive weight devision.

[oliverfennell]

Are we defending Audley's opponents on his initial BBC contract now? And it depends on your notion of few fights - are we talking first two/three of first 15?

I don't know many "prospects" who turn pro at the age of 30 and declare themselves to be British champion in 5 fights.... and you know something - it wasn't laughed about by the press at the time, because at his age and with his attributes and the state of the heavyweight boxing domestically at the time... it should have been a realistic claim.

Degale is much younger, so less time for him to rush, and is fighting a pretty solid British champion who is ambitious himself, in a much more competitive weight devision.

Yes, I am defending his early opponents, and always have done. I'm as disappointed as anybody with how his career ultimately panned out, but I maintain there was nothing wrong with his matchmaking as a prospect.

As for the "British champ in 5 fights" claim, I don't know why people keep harping on about that. How many boxers have made claims that they would ultimately not fulfill? Pretty much all of them! In any case, at the time he made that claim, Mike Holden was the British champ, and I'm sure that even with hindsight of what Harrison did (or didn't) achieve, very few people would have picked Holden over him at any stage of their careers, with the only caveat being a 5-fight novice probably wouldn't be able to (or be licensed to) fight 12 rounds.

And it depends on your notion of few fights - are we talking first two/three of first 15? You said Middleton to Nix, so let's run with that time frame.

So, to the challenge - how many heavyweight prospects can you name with better matchmaking over the same number of fights? (DeGale and Khan are not heavyweights)

The very well-regarded Francesco Pianeta is taking on Mike Middleton in his next fight!!

[stujones]

The fact that Mike Holden was British champion makes the situation a whole lot worst. As you said - no-one would have tipped Holden at any point of his career, he made the claim. So why didn't he at least back it up.

He could have fought Holden in an 8 rounder in his 5th fight. The BBBoC would have sanctioned it in the 6th. He made no attempt to fight any of the best domestically.

Oh I see Pianeta (not sure where he is highly regarded) is taking on Mike Middleton. Is this an arguement that Middleton is alot better than his record suggests? or are you suggesting Pianeta is not being developed. He has beaten the likes of Gammer, Skelton etc. I don't think he is treating Middleton as a step up.

As for your challenge.... Tyson Fury (whose been ridiculed) - fought that half decent German with a kilt who was like 23-3 at the time... then fought John McDermmott (and please don't give me the Mark Krence common link) twice within this run - John McDermmott is a much better fighter in 2010 than Krence was in 2002.

Danny Williams opponents coming through were pretty bad - it could be debatable as to how much worst they were though. Michael Murray was half decent. We are not exactly comparing great resumes here. Almost like whats the best shit, yellow runny shit or brown hard guiness poo.... Shit is shit at the end of the day.

It wasn't just the quality if was the time he was taking to get through these opponents.

[bruthead]

I still cannot help but feel annoyed at the lack of balance sometimes in boxing. Audley was quite possibly a millionaire BEFORE he turned pro, most definately a multi millionaire after his first contract with the BBC (where he fought bums).

I reckon his bank balance is a lot plusher than true warriors like Rocky Juarez or someone like that. Just doesn't seem "right".

---

Okay, to get their man TV companies/promoters have to pay lots up front - probably not as much as Audley received, but lots. However, in the most part - fighters have repaid them and proved themselves quite quickly.

I would be surprised if Aud was a multi-millionaire after his BBC deal ended. I thought it was a £1m deal for ten fights? After taxes and expenses that isn't that much money. Even for the Haye fight let's say Aud got £1m...no more than £400k will hit his bank balance. Yes, a lot of money but these days that's not even enough for a 2-bedroom flat in a nice part of London. Yes, Aud's money may not seem "right" but that's life. Many people earn silly money which feels "wrong." End of the day a lot of people freely paid to see Haye-Harrison. I can justify Aud's paycheque more than those of most investment bankers.

TV companies pay Olympic stars and top prospects big money up front as an investment. They take the risk that they will become a star and pay back many times that investment. Warren isn't paying DeGale big cash out of the goodness of his heart. Sometimes investments pay off, sometimes not; that's business. Audley didn't con the BBC. They made a bad investment.

[oliverfennell]

The fact that Mike Holden was British champion makes the situation a whole lot worst. As you said - no-one would have tipped Holden at any point of his career, he made the claim. So why didn't he at least back it up.

He could have fought Holden in an 8 rounder in his 5th fight. The BBBoC would have sanctioned it in the 6th. He made no attempt to fight any of the best domestically.

Oh I see Pianeta (not sure where he is highly regarded) is taking on Mike Middleton. Is this an arguement that Middleton is alot better than his record suggests? or are you suggesting Pianeta is not being developed. He has beaten the likes of Gammer, Skelton etc. I don't think he is treating Middleton as a step up.

As for your challenge.... Tyson Fury (whose been ridiculed) - fought that half decent German with a kilt who was like 23-3 at the time... then fought John McDermmott (and please don't give me the Mark Krence common link) twice within this run - John McDermmott is a much better fighter in 2010 than Krence was in 2002.

Danny Williams opponents coming through were pretty bad - it could be debatable as to how much worst they were though. Michael Murray was half decent. We are not exactly comparing great resumes here. Almost like whats the best shit, yellow runny shit or brown hard guiness poo.... Shit is shit at the end of the day.

It wasn't just the quality if was the time he was taking to get through these opponents.

Re. Holden, his title run was very short and, I seem to remember, curtailed by injury. At the time Harrison made the comment, Holden was champ, but after that there was no time that they could have feasibly met. Holden's successor was Danny Williams, who obviously was a league above and was never a likely opponent for a novice Audley.

I mentioned Pianeta because of the Middleton comparison. People panned Middleton as an opponent for Harrison's debut, but here he is 10 years later taking on an established Euro-level operator! He also fought the then 18-0 Owen Beck after Harrison. That's not to say he wasn't a bad match for them, or was a good match for Harrison, but just offering at as means of matchmaking comparison when people criticise Audley's early opposition.

Fury indeed has had some decent matches for a prospect, but he too gets hit with criticisms for his matchmaking, which is ridiculous. Even then, Harrison doesn't have any 4-20 types on his record, as Fury does.

For sure Harrison was never in danger of losing any of those early fights, but rising heavyweights never are, and each of those early bouts offered something different for his learning curve - aggressive types (Middleton, Negus), big guys (Long), decent technical boxers (Krence), durable sorts (Draskovic), experienced veterans (Calloway), etc. Most of his opponents, even in the early days, had winning records, and even those with losing records, it wasn't by much - there's not a Gary Williams or a Slick Miller or a Paul King to be seen.

What do you mean about the time he took to get through the opponents? You mean the timeframe of his bout schedule, or that he should have beaten them quicker?

For the former point, remember he was injured a couple of times. Also he was self-promoted and put on entire shows by himself. Obviously that proved a folly (and he admits as much himself) but it is an explanation.

For the latter point, consider when he bombed out Middleton in a round, the fans were dissatisfied with a short fight, then next time out when he went the distance with McCafferty, they were dissatisfied that they didn't get a knockout!

[stujones]

I don't think we will ever agree. My major criticism of Audley's early pro career was 1) Unlike these other fighters we mentioned (Fury, Williams etc) - Audley was the wrong side of 28 turning pro.

2) The timeframe..... yes, if you look at Mike Tyson first 13 or so fights it was pretty dire, but he was world champion just after a year of turning pro. Audley didn't step up until he fought Danny Williams which was what - 5 years after his last Amateur fight. Most Olympians are on the verge of world titles before the next Olympics - Audley hadn't even fought a decent domestic operator at that stage (and the British Heavyweights were pretty dire comparing to the world level opponents). If he was 21/22 like Danny Williams and Tyson Fury turning pro - then it would be somewhat more acceptable.

Yes there were injuries, but then I feel he should still have been upping his opponents after he recovered. I'm not talking a major step up in class, but you know the likes of Holden (whether British champion or not), Keith Long, Harry Senior etc. These were fighters he should have been tipped to beat in his pro debut - so why not after the first 12 months.

3) The money he earned for these fights.... good on him, if it was my son or something I would be encouraging him to go the Audley route - and probably advice him to retire after the BBC contract expired. For the money he was earning he should have been fighting a better class of opponent. Danny Williams and Tyson Fury were earning peanuts in comparison.

As I said we aren't going to agree, but it was nice debating. I can see your point regarding the comparisons with others - hope you can see the point I make that actually it would have been advisably for manage Audley that he would have achieved his early boasts. He was around 30 - he needed to be fighting at the upper end of domestic class soon. Look at Larry - he is kind of rushing now because of his age - he might find (hope not) John McDermott too big a step compared to previous opponents..... however, its something (with his age) he simply has to do.

[LeedsLad]

Personally speaking.....

No amount of money for being told ''I'm shit and I know I am'' by the best part of 20000 people, and being made a mockery of for the best part of a decade.

[oliverfennell]

I don't think we will ever agree. My major criticism of Audley's early pro career was 1) Unlike these other fighters we mentioned (Fury, Williams etc) - Audley was the wrong side of 28 turning pro.

2) The timeframe..... yes, if you look at Mike Tyson first 13 or so fights it was pretty dire, but he was world champion just after a year of turning pro. Audley didn't step up until he fought Danny Williams which was what - 5 years after his last Amateur fight. Most Olympians are on the verge of world titles before the next Olympics - Audley hadn't even fought a decent domestic operator at that stage (and the British Heavyweights were pretty dire comparing to the world level opponents). If he was 21/22 like Danny Williams and Tyson Fury turning pro - then it would be somewhat more acceptable.

Yes there were injuries, but then I feel he should still have been upping his opponents after he recovered. I'm not talking a major step up in class, but you know the likes of Holden (whether British champion or not), Keith Long, Harry Senior etc. These were fighters he should have been tipped to beat in his pro debut - so why not after the first 12 months.

3) The money he earned for these fights.... good on him, if it was my son or something I would be encouraging him to go the Audley route - and probably advice him to retire after the BBC contract expired. For the money he was earning he should have been fighting a better class of opponent. Danny Williams and Tyson Fury were earning peanuts in comparison.

As I said we aren't going to agree, but it was nice debating. I can see your point regarding the comparisons with others - hope you can see the point I make that actually it would have been advisably for manage Audley that he would have achieved his early boasts. He was around 30 - he needed to be fighting at the upper end of domestic class soon. Look at Larry - he is kind of rushing now because of his age - he might find (hope not) John McDermott too big a step compared to previous opponents..... however, its something (with his age) he simply has to do.

Yes, decent debate, Stu. Perhaps we won't end up agreeing but it's always good to thrash it out with someone intelligently!

Anyway, points taken about his age and also the point others have made in the past about Harrison being top of the bill meaning he should have been fighting a bit higher up. These are valid, but basically I'm just addressing the misconception that he was fighting "bums" or knockovers or whatever. True, they were all big underdogs, but still, purely on paper (i.e. Audley's age and the TV side of things apart) his pro "apprenticeship" was still more solid than most.

And to compare him - or anyone else! - to the speed of Tyson's rise is hardly fair (BN did it too). That was once-in-a-lifetime stuff!

[Captain Hook]

Good stuff James....

[stujones]

Oh yeah, the Tyson example was extreme, but there were others. Lennox Lewis was not applauded for the speed of his progression - a few negative snippets here and there, but he was fighting hungry world ranked fighters within 3 years of the Olympics. Riddick Bowe the same.

But anyway, your posts has made me think of another topic... and maybe one James might want to explore. Why are Heavyweights brought alone more slowly... surely given the weight and the size of the men - there are less options around - so why are bums fed to the heavyweight prospects more so than those at a lightweight.... surely there are more options for journeyman and grizzled veterans there given that there are more pro boxers in that category.

We've all seen example of lighterweight fighters being feed to the lions a bit too soon. Example I clearly think of is Ryan Rhodes vs Otis Grant and also Esham Pickering against Jon Jo Irwin. So why does this frequently happen more at the lighterweights.

[oliverfennell]

Yes, that's why I specifically compared Harrison to other heavyweight prospects. Agreed, when you look at other Olympians - Khan, DeGale, Ward, for three recent obvious ones - they tend to hit title class much sooner than the heavyweights.

It would be an interesting talking point/article. I suppose the immediately obvious answer would be that there's more money to be milked from heavyweights. Also that heavyweights often mature later (obviously less of a consideration when turning pro at 29, as Harrison did).

[Dirk Kelly]

I believed the early hype about Audley until they interviewed Derek McCafferty after their fight. For a man coming off was it six years out of the ring?!? to comment that Audley lacked a punch, had no snap, didn't like getting hit back etc really summed up Audley's career to date.