Muhammad and Larry ESPN Films on Sky Anytime now. Very sad.

[demolitiondaley]

Just watching this now, it is sad to see how shot Ali was in the run up to this fight.

[chiggsy]

Yea watched it the other day mate very sad.
You could see in the gym that he was completely shot.
Getting beat up by sparring partners,no longer able to use the speed ball and slurred speach.
Ali got paid 8 million dollars for that fight and a further 1.2 million for the berbick fight but I reckon it's fair bet that he now wishes he had just stayed retired.

[Andypittcov]

I watched it too, brilliant, never get bored of seeing Ali the mans a true inspiration, was a sad one though, the fact he failed neurological tests in the build up to the holmes fight shocked me, how could they let him fight, even without the tests it was so clear to see his health was seriously declining, larry crying in his dressing room after the fight said it all.

[stujones]

I've yet to see the Berbick fight. There is a double Video/DVD of it that I've tried to get, but I think its only playable on the US TV. I've heard it was a better display against Berbick.

Ali used to regularly get beat up by sparring partners - so that wasn't necessarily new news, but his speed bag showed just how shot he was. Well his whole movement, everything was slowing up. Worst of course was to come.

I've watched the fight several times and it is one that the shows the power of the commentators. If you watch it the UK / ITV broadcast - you feel Holmes is only carrying Ali for 2 rounds... the US commentary gives a different view and leaves you feel Holmes was carrying him from the opener.

[McCannW14]

Yeah, Holmes was carrying him alright, it was very noble of him, you can see Larry's compassion in this and the Marvis Frazier fight.

Holmes could have stopped Ali inside 3 rounds if he wanted to, maybe even inside the first round.

[bigjack]

Just watching this now, it is sad to see how shot Ali was in the run up to this fight.

You could see in his movements during training that he had become incredibly slow and he had to shift a lot of weight,even when in the ring during the announcements when he was trying to get the crowd chanting it was as if he was in slow motion.

[bennie]

He was lucky he did not suffer a heart attack in the fight.

[stujones]

You think Bennie? He had gone through a pretty hard training camp. He was lucky Holmes didn't inflict further serious damage (which he was well capable of) for sure.

[Counter-puncher]

RE the heart attack, bennie, I am wondering if the cocktail of pharmaceuticals he was allegedly on by then, might have precipitated such?

[LeedsLad]

I think Holmes was carrying him from the word go too..... not so much earlier but by the 9th and 10th he was almost reluctant to throw punches.

Not sure who the clown was in the corner trying to prevent Dundee from stopping the fight.....

Larry could really have put it on him in this one in my opinion.

Why was he allowed to fight Holmes, and later Berbick?

[Counter-puncher]

Not sure who the clown was in the corner trying to prevent Dundee from stopping the fight.....

?

i haven't seen that bit, but if its clown + Ali the answer generally = Bundini Brown

[dbf]

Been reading the excellent Thomas Hauseur Muhammad Ali, life and times. Ali, truly is one of a kind. Amazing man, amazing athelete.

Sad to see the build up to the Holmes fight.

[Chambers2]

I watched the first half of this doc, but I had to turn it off. He should never have been allowed to fight Holmes

[stujones]

Ali kept asking in the build up to this one "Do I sound like I have brain damage" - shame the journo's / interviewers couldn't have been more honest. However, tough question to ask someone.

Terry - its on Sky Anytime now... think it is running until today - so press the green button after you press TV channels. You can record it from there.

I did watch the Berbick fight yesterday - thanks to Youtube. Actually, Ali goes up in my estimation as a boxer following that. He does lose some of the weight naturally (he is about 20 kilo's heavier than for Holmes) but he is alot better in this fight. Off course, Holmes is in a different league all together than Berbick but Ali at least moving somewhat.

Berbick won but it was far from a shut out. However, the sad thing about it was post fight. Ali was inaudiable after, I really couldn't understand him. He was as bad as he was in the Champions Forever documentary some 6 years after. He was slurring pre fight, but post fight it was a shock at the deterioration.

However, it is a testiment to how great Ali was that he was competitive against a top ranked contender like Berbick at 39. Ali's 39 was different to most other fighters 39. Not many other fighters were already on meds for Parkison's and moving quite so slowly in everyday life.

[Rocky Balboa]

Just watching this now, it is sad to see how shot Ali was in the run up to this fight.

Yes it is but people acted like it was Holmes' fault & it certainly wasn't! Holmes was a fighter, trying to earn a living to feed his family, so just what was he meant to do, not take the fight & turn down the big payday he received? No way!

In fact, Ali's corner, friends, family should account for some of the blame. I think only Ferdie Percheco aired his views that Ali was shot, gone, etc.

[stujones]

I've always supported Angelo Dundee's stance. Off course he knew Muhammad was shot - apparently he told him during the later part of his 2nd reign. However, it was Ali's right to fight on and why not try and make sure he prepares under his guidance and protection. I don't think Angelo was aware quite of all the things Ali was doing away from the gym (I mean medication pill popping).

Dundee said the same of Leonard - some dispute made him not work Leonard's corner for the Camacho fight, not some Moral highground judgement. Dundee was adamant (and I don't think big headed) that Leonard might have done a tad better when he was fighting him - but still didn't want him to.

Glynn Rhodes shared a similar view of Herol Graham when he returned in the mid 90's. Didn't want him to comeback, was public in his views of him as a fighter - but had this "I'll always be there to make you prepare to your best" attitude. Freddie Roach said similar of Hopkins - called for Hopkins to retire after the Calzaghe fight, but did maintain that he would be there to train him if Hopkins desired to.

Having said that, those in the camp that convinced Ali he was back, convinced that Ali was a young 39 and tried to beg Dundee to continue the fight... needed to look at themselves.

[DavidPayne]

Great film.

[dekker88]

sky+'ed it...but not sure if i'm gonna watch or not....i find it painful to see Ali like that.

[stujones]

I've always supported Angelo Dundee's stance. Off course he knew Muhammad was shot - apparently he told him during the later part of his 2nd reign. However, it was Ali's right to fight on and why not try and make sure he prepares under his guidance and protection. I don't think Angelo was aware quite of all the things Ali was doing away from the gym (I mean medication pill popping).

Dundee said the same of Leonard - some dispute made him not work Leonard's corner for the Camacho fight, not some Moral highground judgement. Dundee was adamant (and I don't think big headed) that Leonard might have done a tad better when he was fighting him - but still didn't want him to.

Glynn Rhodes shared a similar view of Herol Graham when he returned in the mid 90's. Didn't want him to comeback, was public in his views of him as a fighter - but had this "I'll always be there to make you prepare to your best" attitude. Freddie Roach said similar of Hopkins - called for Hopkins to retire after the Calzaghe fight, but did maintain that he would be there to train him if Hopkins desired to.

Having said that, those in the camp that convinced Ali he was back, convinced that Ali was a young 39 and tried to beg Dundee to continue the fight... needed to look at themselves.

Herbert strikes again. Dundee at least pulled the plug, as you say, those NOI guys wanted him to go out for a few more rounds.

A large portion of blame lies with Ali himself, no one forced him to carry on. He is a contradictory figure, we praise him for the force of will shown in the Vietnam issue but he would often crumble before the NOI; he was also addicted to fame and glory, sadly, and this led him to gamble with his health.

Ali should have called it a day after the third Norton fight. Sure, he went on to win the title for a third time but I don't really see that win over Spinks as an achievement, it was similar to Lewis beating Rahman in fight II, something that should have happened in fight one and a waste of time, although Lewis did finally break US resolve in that second fight.

It is similar to Ray Robinson's stats, five middleweight wins is a good stat until you consider the amount of times he lost that title. Ali's win over Spinks was bittersweet and he really should have called it a day long before then.

Norton III, a solid win in a great fight, was the last hurrah, the rest was akin to watching a man fall apart before our very eyes.

Ummm - agree with about 95% of that post.

Certainly agree with the fact that Ali himself has to have a certain amount of the blame. A large amount I would say. The boxing and medical people he had on board dare I say it who were white certainly told him enough times during his second reign. Not supposed to be racists, but I am sure if Bundini Brown had told him to pack it in, it might not have fallen on deaf years.

As for when he should have retired a big part of me agree with you. There was a marked deterioration in his performances and speech post the 3rd Norton fight - I believe thats when Pachecco had enough and certainly I feel maybe even that fight wasn't a necessicity.

Having said that, for me there was something a bit romantic about the 2nd Spinks fight. Yes, Leon - although a better fighter than his final record suggests, wouldn't have got close to Ali in his pomp and not in his league. However, it was still quite a fitting end. Not because he won the title for the third time, but because of the manner of the win and the performance. Ali hadn't performed that well in years. I would even argue, he didn't perform that well it against Norton. He did turn back the clock and he was dancing again. Yes, its all in hindsight - but everything from the condition he was in, the way he fought and even (and I know it shouldn't be considered) the emotional commentary from Pachecco himself gave it a rather romantic ending.

Can see the analogy with the Rahman vs Lewis display, for me I also can see something of Oscar (sorry for bringing him up) vs Mayorga in it - with the manner of the win following some rather drab displays when overweight.

For his health - should have called it a day at least after Norton. But not sure I wanted him to end his career on a controvesial decision, against a fighter who always seemed to make him look very ordinary. I was actually impressed with his performance against Spinks in the rematch - irrespective of the level of opponent.

[stujones]

Just had to do an undergrad lecture on Parkison's as you can guess, anecdotal examples for Ali was coming up pretty frequently!

[BO Selecta]

Yea watched it the other day mate very sad.
You could see in the gym that he was completely shot.
Getting beat up by sparring partners,no longer able to use the speed ball and slurred speach.
Ali got paid 8 million dollars for that fight and a further 1.2 million for the berbick fight but I reckon it's fair bet that he now wishes he had just stayed retired.

It staggers me that Ali managed to get a licence to fight.

Although I've never liked Larry Holmes as I think he is quite bitter & lacks a bit of class, I have to give him respect for taking pity on Ali that night.

He could have battered Ali senseless if he wanted to, so it's credit to him that he chose not to.

[Buncey]

It would be interesting to see how this fight would have been viewed if the internet was up and running.
I wonder what the boxing gurus in the British and American press wrote?
Did they write ... "This fight should NOT be taking place"?
I would like to think that I would have written that in The Independent.
I wonder if Boxing News had a cover with a picture of a beaten Ali and the headline: RIP Boxing?
I remember being in the gym at the time and proper fight people saying that Ali was finished and that Holmes would slaughter him - that's real fight people and not paper fight people.
I wonder.

Adios.

[APaterson]

I remember when this was advertised and forgot all about it until I came across it on anytime.

jesus christ that was sad to watch.

I was watching the interview with Parkinson recently and the wife commented on the Uncle Tom comments, then I shouted to her to come and see this.

the bit with the speed ball was a "omfg" moment and the wife was like what happened to him? Then she heard him trying to speak.

how the hell he was licensed to fight I will never know. either way the person should be in jail that was a total crime.

[Syntax Error]

Just finished watching this.

Really insightful piece of TV.

Quite a few highlights for me; firstly, I still cannot believe that Ali was ever allowed to fight.

He didn't need neurological tests, you could see & hear the deterioration in the man. His movements were slower & his speech softer & slurred. The life & expression from his face just wasn't the same as usual

I've also acquired some newfound respect for Holmes.

I've always thought he was a great fighter, but seeing the film of him crying afterwards was really sad.

Larry also came across as quite charismatic & amiable.

I also thought Larry's wife made a great point about the fact that it was as if Larry Holmes had just dropped off the face of the Earth, because nobody ever talked about him.

That was a very good quote from her & just sums up what it was like for Larry to follow in the footsteps of Ali.

Sidebar: If ever a man did NOT suit a moustache, it was Muhammad Ali! (That smiley actually looks like Ali ). Very handsome man, but not suited to the moustache methinks!!!

[DavidPayne]

Interesting from Buncey.

We've had the internet for Holyfield, Jones Jnr.....

We had the internet for Tyson v Lewis too. A comparable contest in my book, though Tyson didn't have the neurological problems it was evident Ali had, he had plenty of problems and shouldn't have been in there based on form, prep or state of mind. Boxing people knew Lewis would trample all over him. Paper boxing people, as Steve describes them, didn't.

Plenty of people were sucked in by Tyson's aura in much the same way.

But lets be honest. If they made Tyson v Wladimir for April and Tyson made the right noises. It would still sell now.

The crime wasn't the gullible, whether they be professional (writers) or spectators, the crime was those who supposedly loved Ali who permitted the fight, and the one versus Berbick to occur.

That said, a commission tried to stop Holyfield fighting......that failed.