Burley vs. LaMotta

Scypion · Post by **Scypion** » 09 May 2005, 15:33

I have read in different places that Charley Burley was one of the toughest fighters around, but was avoided by many of the top contenders and champions because he was so good. I wonder if Burley's people ever tried to get him a match with Jake LaMotta. It seems like LaMotta might have taken such a match, but I don't know. Anyone know?

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 24 May 2005, 11:23

Burley fought from '36 to '50; LaMotta from '41 to '54. I didn't realize they overlapped to that extent, but Charley was on the backside of his career while Jake was just getting started. Plus they were both busy; Burley, from '42 -'45 fought Ezzard Charles twice, Archie Moore, Holman Williams 5 times and Jack Chase (of California, record of 77-12, losing several decisions each to Moore and Charles) 3 times. In the same span LaMotta fought Robinson 5 times, Fritzie Zivic 4 times (all split decisions except for the 15 Zivic won. I'm a Zivic fan being Croatian, also my father sparred with him and I have an autograph he gave my aunt in1940) Don't see how they could've worked ina bout against one another.

Boxscribe · Post by **Boxscribe** » 24 May 2005, 13:08

In 1947, when the careers of these two great middleweights did overlap, Burley was scratching around for fights while LaMotta was trying to get into the title frame. Both were ranked middleweights at the time (top 10).

LaMotta fought four times that year, beating Tommy Bell and Tony Janiro and losing to Cecil Hudson. The last of those bouts was also a loss - against Billy Fox. Burley fought twice, losing the first to Bert Lytell in February (Burley had the early stages of pluerisy at the time) then beating Larry Cartwright in Virginia in August. Abe J.Greene - aware of the monopoly that was taking place amongst the middleweights with the Zale V Graziano round-robin - was looking to establish a contender and proposed LaMotta, Burley and Cerdan for a series of bouts. The winner of these bouts would get to fight the eventual winner of Zale V Graziano (though how Graziano got a middleweight title fight ahead of any of these guys is anyone's guess - wink, wink ).

LaMotta's management (was that Jake himself?) didn't want any part of Burley, neither did Cerdan's mamagement. So, Cerdan beats Abrams (then eventually Zale) while LaMotta is beaten (?) by Billy Fox only to get a title shot against Cerdan after his suspension is up.

Burley was at the tail-end of his career at that point, but was still considered too much for any of the fighters mentioned above. Plus he never had the connections the other fighters had.

For a period between 1940 and 1941 Zivic held Burley's contract, before selling it to Tommy O'Loughlin. This too had a negative impact upon Burley's career as he was esentially treading water during that time. Still, it stopped Zivic fighting him again.

Scypion · Post by **Scypion** » 24 May 2005, 15:17

Thanks guys. Interesting stuff here. I just thought that Burley-LaMotta seemed like it would be a natural match-up at that time. I know that Burley was ducked by many fighters, but I didn't think LaMotta was the type that would duck anybody. I could have been wrong, but who knows.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 25 May 2005, 01:36

...just for the record, lamotta was one of the few white rated middleweights who would fight burt lytell....he won by a decision in 1945. burley is getting some recognition these days, but lytell remains virtually unknown. he was a step or two below burley in talent, but who wasn't? lytell, like burley and some others often had to fight light heavies to get matches. he drove the hard hitting rated light heavy oakland billy smith nuts the night he beat him in cincinnati. a southpaw with a deceptive style, he reamins one of the great under rated.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 25 May 2005, 01:46

...damn..i wasn't sure i was right, so i checked his record after the preceding post....and indeed...lytell did decision charley burley. he also killed a fighter...jacke darthard...in the ring.

if you'll check him out on boxrec you'll see how many times the weights of the fighters are left blank. probably because he spotted so much weight in so many fights the information is....ah...discreetly missing. he is also listed as a light heavy by box rec....but he was a middle..and a small one at that.

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 25 May 2005, 12:05

I did some "research" last night on this subject. Burley had a very unique stance, his feet being rather widely placed, left held low, weight mostly on back foot and upperbody turned to the right, and , in fact, his whole stance turned as far right as possible. His jab would rise, the glove coming from his hip, and turned as far right as he was his opponent had to literally run 3/4ths of the way around him to land a hook. When attacking- or counterpunching- he seemed very effective with his right in all forms... I believe he'd have decisioned La Motta, countering to great effect and giving him nothing much to punch back at.

Boxscribe · Post by **Boxscribe** » 25 May 2005, 12:30

Lytell is very underrated and something of an enigma. There were a great deal of very good fighters around at that time that never got a look in at the title. Lloyd Marshall, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Eddie Booker, Cocoa Kid, and many more fighters simply never got their due.

LaMotta was one of the few white fighters who would fight the black middleweights of the day and he has to be given some credit for that.

As Burley's biographer I just wish he had fought LaMotta, Zale, Graziano, Robinson et al.

Scypion · Post by **Scypion** » 25 May 2005, 15:43

I wish that Burley had fought Zale, Garziano, LaMotta, etc. As for Robinson, Sugar Ray was usually a full weight class under Burley. It was probably tough enough for Robinson to give away 15 or 16 lbs. to LaMotta in some of their fights.

Anyway, it was the managers that made the fights. The name of the game was getting their fighters fights that would help their careers, not destroy them. Too bad that being so good actually hurts a boxer's career, but it has happened to many boxers.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 25 May 2005, 17:22

tiredoldngrey wrote:I did some "research" last night on this subject. Burley had a very unique stance, his feet being rather widely placed, left held low, weight mostly on back foot and upperbody turned to the right, and , in fact, his whole stance turned as far right as possible. His jab would rise, the glove coming from his hip, and turned as far right as he was his opponent had to literally run 3/4ths of the way around him to land a hook. When attacking- or counterpunching- he seemed very effective with his right in all forms... I believe he'd have decisioned La Motta, countering to great effect and giving him nothing much to punch back at.

Agreed, though perhaps if Jake landed enough leather to the left liver he could slow Charley and rack up the points in the late rounds, maybe get a close decision.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 26 May 2005, 01:00

...a thread like this is refreshing, in the sense that it's what a forum is supposed to be about....an exchange of information and reasoned opinions..not some yahoos screaming they hope mike tyson will come to your house and engage in carnal relations with your grandmother, who is probably a cross dresser anyway.

note: this is not an indication that my rapier is in storage....there are still a lot of those other kind of threads to keep my skills from rusting.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 26 May 2005, 07:24

`Cocoa Kid`s record is something else to look at, such a wide range of weight categories his opponents covered.

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 26 May 2005, 22:41

I don't know how many are familiar with a book entitledCharley Burley: The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion, by Allen S. Rosenfeld but if you ever have the chance you cannot go wrong with this book. It is not only a detailed fight by by account of his career, but there are significant sections on many of the fighters involved in his career- Zivic, H Williams, B Lytell, Jack Chawse, etc- and even on those who were not opponents but might have been, like Billy Conn, and Jake LaMotta. A fighter namedjimmy Edgar said of him that when you fought La Motta the only thing you could be sure of was hitting him with the jab. LaMotta fought Holman Williams in Detroit and scored a flash kd early but from 4-6 Williams apparently used Jake for a heavy bag. In the last 4 the story says LaMotta fought as though he'd decided the only way to avoid getting hit was to keep Williams to busy to punch and he won a UD. The crowd booed and at least a few writers didn't like the call, though most did. Any way, its an awfully good read.

Boxscribe · Post by **Boxscribe** » 28 May 2005, 05:05

For those that are interested in my own book on Burley - 'Charley Burley and the Black Murderers' Row' - there will be a review in the June issue of Boxing Monthly. This is in advance of the 2nd edition's availability in paperback.

Those that managed to get one of the limited editions (300 copies) in hardback may also want to have a look at the new edition as there has been quite a bit of revision. I have also included some new photos.

With regards to the 1st edition, there are a number of nice reviews on amazon.co.uk (thanks guys) and The Cyberboxing Zone

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 98-0346021

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0804-otty.html

Burley vs. LaMotta

Burley vs. LaMotta

Burley-LaMotta.

Burley-LaMotta

Charley Burley